Discussion:
Fwd: Re: [discussion] Foundation - the future of SME....
(too old to reply)
Greg Zartman
2015-01-01 21:06:19 UTC
Permalink
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: "Greg Zartman" <***@leiengineering.com>
Date: Jan 1, 2015 1:05 PM
Subject: Re: [discussion] Foundation - the future of SME....
To: "Dave Liquorice" <***@howhill.com>
Cc:


On Dec 22, 2014 3:56 AM, "Dave Liquorice" <***@howhill.com> wrote:
>
> With a single server in a SOHO enviroment and 4 regular users that would
> depend on the charge. B-) I pay EUR10.00 (approx GBP7.00) per year for
my
> usenet feed from news.individual.net. GBP10.00 a year for SME would not
be a
> problem. GBP10.00 a month would make me think again... I do occasionally
> help with coding and the wiki though

Seriously? Where can you get enterprise grade email, spam, av, and file
sharing for $2.50 a user? The answer to that is easy: no where. We've
been selling ourselves short. I use Google apps in my shop and happily
pay $5/user/month and that doesn't include half of what sme provides. In
fact I've hacked my deployment of sme to integrate with gapps.

For non-profits and home use it should be free, but business users need to
start kicking down. Not sure how we do this best. I hate Monthly charges
but wouldn't mind a yearly or quarterly fee.

Greg
David Beveridge
2015-01-01 22:21:37 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, Jan 2, 2015 at 7:06 AM, Greg Zartman <***@leiengineering.com>
wrote:

> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>
> On Dec 22, 2014 3:56 AM, "Dave Liquorice" <***@howhill.com> wrote:
> >
> > With a single server in a SOHO enviroment and 4 regular users that would
> > depend on the charge. B-) I pay EUR10.00 (approx GBP7.00) per year for
> my
> > usenet feed from news.individual.net. GBP10.00 a year for SME would not
> be a
> > problem. GBP10.00 a month would make me think again... I do occasionally
> > help with coding and the wiki though
>
> Seriously? Where can you get enterprise grade email, spam, av, and file
> sharing for $2.50 a user? The answer to that is easy: no where. We've
> been selling ourselves short. I use Google apps in my shop and happily
> pay $5/user/month and that doesn't include half of what sme provides. In
> fact I've hacked my deployment of sme to integrate with gapps.
>

I manage a site which has Untangle firewall, Zimbra LDAP and EMAIL,
fileserver, and Ubuntu LTSP terminal server, all the PC's PXE Boot Ubuntu
desktop off the terminal server and the whole lot is free using community
editions etc.
They have one single windows PC to run MYOB (not free).
It's a bit more complicated than SME, but then again SME doesn't do all
that, (and on top of that, the whole thing is virtualized using KVM).

I think that all or most of those products DO HAVE paid for commercial
versions that offer support. I know that Untangle, Zimbra and LTSP do
anyway.

dave

> For non-profits and home use it should be free, but business users need to
> start kicking down. Not sure how we do this best. I hate Monthly charges
> but wouldn't mind a yearly or quarterly fee.
>
> Greg
>
Hsing-Foo Wang
2015-01-01 22:25:59 UTC
Permalink
On 01/01/2015 11:21 PM, David Beveridge wrote:
>
>
> On Fri, Jan 2, 2015 at 7:06 AM, Greg Zartman <***@leiengineering.com
> <mailto:***@leiengineering.com>> wrote:
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>
> On Dec 22, 2014 3:56 AM, "Dave Liquorice" <***@howhill.com
> <mailto:***@howhill.com>> wrote:
> >
> > With a single server in a SOHO enviroment and 4 regular users
> that would
> > depend on the charge. B-) I pay EUR10.00 (approx GBP7.00) per
> year for my
> > usenet feed from news.individual.net
> <http://news.individual.net>. GBP10.00 a year for SME would not be a
> > problem. GBP10.00 a month would make me think again... I do
> occasionally
> > help with coding and the wiki though
>
> Seriously? Where can you get enterprise grade email, spam, av,
> and file sharing for $2.50 a user? The answer to that is easy:
> no where. We've been selling ourselves short. I use Google apps
> in my shop and happily pay $5/user/month and that doesn't include
> half of what sme provides. In fact I've hacked my deployment of
> sme to integrate with gapps.
>
>
> I manage a site which has Untangle firewall, Zimbra LDAP and EMAIL,
> fileserver, and Ubuntu LTSP terminal server, all the PC's PXE Boot
> Ubuntu desktop off the terminal server and the whole lot is free using
> community editions etc.
> They have one single windows PC to run MYOB (not free).
> It's a bit more complicated than SME, but then again SME doesn't do
> all that, (and on top of that, the whole thing is virtualized using KVM).
> I think that all or most of those products DO HAVE paid for commercial
> versions that offer support. I know that Untangle, Zimbra and LTSP do
> anyway.
>
Sounds fair enough, but what do you get for that paid commercial
license? Commercial support?

> dave
>
> For non-profits and home use it should be free, but business users
> need to start kicking down. Not sure how we do this best. I hate
> Monthly charges but wouldn't mind a yearly or quarterly fee.
>
> Greg
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Server Development Discussion
> To unsubscribe, e-mail devinfo-***@lists.contribs.org
> Searchable archive at http://lists.contribs.org/mailman/public/devinfo/
David Beveridge
2015-01-01 22:39:37 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, Jan 2, 2015 at 8:25 AM, Hsing-Foo Wang <***@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> On 01/01/2015 11:21 PM, David Beveridge wrote:
>
> I manage a site which has Untangle firewall, Zimbra LDAP and EMAIL,
> fileserver, and Ubuntu LTSP terminal server, all the PC's PXE Boot Ubuntu
> desktop off the terminal server and the whole lot is free using community
> editions etc.
> They have one single windows PC to run MYOB (not free).
> It's a bit more complicated than SME, but then again SME doesn't do all
> that, (and on top of that, the whole thing is virtualized using KVM).
>
> I think that all or most of those products DO HAVE paid for commercial
> versions that offer support. I know that Untangle, Zimbra and LTSP do
> anyway.
>
> Sounds fair enough, but what do you get for that paid commercial
> license? Commercial support?
>
>
Dunno, never taken it up. I did have some commercial versions of RedHat
Enterprise 6 for a while but they (REDHAT) could never fix my problems, so
I went back to CentOS.
One problem with offering a paid support version of SME server is that too
few people will need it, as SME server is reliable and easy to use out of
the box.

In many cases, customers wanting to pay for an OS have opted for Microsoft
SBS. I think SBS2003 cost about $600 bucks on top of the hardware and over
10 years was only $60/year if you want to look at it that way. Of course
it costs more if you want the professional version or more CALs, but still
not that expensive for a business. May of these customers are switching to
Office365, and that's around $10-$20/user/month.
Hsing-Foo Wang
2015-01-01 22:58:15 UTC
Permalink
On 01/01/2015 11:39 PM, David Beveridge wrote:
>
>
> On Fri, Jan 2, 2015 at 8:25 AM, Hsing-Foo Wang <***@gmail.com
> <mailto:***@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>
> On 01/01/2015 11:21 PM, David Beveridge wrote:
>> I manage a site which has Untangle firewall, Zimbra LDAP and
>> EMAIL, fileserver, and Ubuntu LTSP terminal server, all the PC's
>> PXE Boot Ubuntu desktop off the terminal server and the whole lot
>> is free using community editions etc.
>> They have one single windows PC to run MYOB (not free).
>> It's a bit more complicated than SME, but then again SME doesn't
>> do all that, (and on top of that, the whole thing is virtualized
>> using KVM).
>> I think that all or most of those products DO HAVE paid for
>> commercial versions that offer support. I know that Untangle,
>> Zimbra and LTSP do anyway.
>>
> Sounds fair enough, but what do you get for that paid commercial
> license? Commercial support?
>
>
> Dunno, never taken it up. I did have some commercial versions of
> RedHat Enterprise 6 for a while but they (REDHAT) could never fix my
> problems, so I went back to CentOS.
> One problem with offering a paid support version of SME server is that
> too few people will need it, as SME server is reliable and easy to use
> out of the box.
>
> In many cases, customers wanting to pay for an OS have opted for
> Microsoft SBS. I think SBS2003 cost about $600 bucks on top of the
> hardware and over 10 years was only $60/year if you want to look at it
> that way. Of course it costs more if you want the professional
> version or more CALs, but still not that expensive for a business.
> May of these customers are switching to Office365, and that's around
> $10-$20/user/month.
>
While we're discussing this topic (generating funds for SME Server) I
still believe that we need to take a look at it from another angle.

Let's say we leave SME Server (the ISO and update repo's) as they are
and look and the user community. The community by itself is an
interesting target audience for potential sponsors or organizations that
are hiring.

I think a well thought out sponsor program will get us funds while at
the same time we can think about any 'charging to business users' on the
medium long term.

There should be hardware vendors or professional services organizations
out there that will pay, 'on par with business rates', for a banner/page
and special mentioning. And looking at the fees of head hunters and
sourcing companies, a jobs corner could be interesting to all parties.

From an Open Source and business perspective, win-win-win I would say.

-HF
John Crisp
2015-01-01 23:14:15 UTC
Permalink
On 01/01/15 23:39, David Beveridge wrote:

> One problem with offering a paid support version of SME server is that too
> few people will need it, as SME server is reliable and easy to use out of
> the box.

Yes, and for that we are hoist on our own petard. May be we should make
it more difficult to use then ?

Is it so hard to explain the reason there is a cost is all the time and
effort that went in to making it easy, and reliable ?

And are you telling us that you install it ALL for free. And you charge
nothing to the client for support ?

If so, exactly how do you earn a living ?

How much did you charge them for that Ubuntu system ? You didn't do it
all for free did you ? So the software was free, but you weren't.

Why not add a small cost in your charges and pay that back to the
companies that make the 'free' software you use ?

>
> In many cases, customers wanting to pay for an OS have opted for Microsoft
> SBS. I think SBS2003 cost about $600 bucks on top of the hardware and over
> 10 years was only $60/year if you want to look at it that way. Of course
> it costs more if you want the professional version or more CALs, but still
> not that expensive for a business. May of these customers are switching to
> Office365, and that's around $10-$20/user/month.
>

So that's about $120 per year, per user minimum. 10 seats, $1,200 per
year. Hmmmm. No wonder Microsoft wants to get you off the "pay once, use
it for 10+ years" model.

And are you also telling us that the client would object to paying say
$50 - $100 per year, that goes in your fees (that you probably wouldn't
itemise anyhow ?)

And equally, bearing in mind that Koozali SME might be open source to
download and use, how do you propose that we raise the money to a) fund
the hardware it is built on and b) try to to fund more development
(which people keep asking us to do - "can you x, y, z" ?)

Sorry - I still don't get the mentality that says 'the software should
be free to use and both me and my client should have to pay nothing for
it, but I can charge the client for my time'

I guess the problem all stems from the 'Free' bit when referring to Open
Source. Koozali SME is Open Source. That doesn't necessarily make it 'free'.

Ultimately, just saying 'don't charge' is not an answer.

We have costs that have to be paid for. We would like to invest in the
system to make it better. The question is how do we fund that ?

Donations HAVE increased over recent times, but not much.

To pay for a full time developer to work on a regular basis we need a
lot more, and reliably too.

Personally I could happily go out and sell and promote Koozali SME both
in companies, at exhibitions or wherever, but I can't afford the time
out of work without pay, or the travel costs to do so (I bribed my wife
to let me go to FOSDEM, but even that was tricky !) And Koozali can't
afford to pay for that either.

We need to raise the name and profile of Koozali to attract more users,
and developers, but without investment it isn't going to happen any time
soon.

Lots of questions to look at this year.
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Hsing-Foo Wang
2015-01-01 23:26:22 UTC
Permalink
On 01/02/2015 12:14 AM, John Crisp wrote:
> On 01/01/15 23:39, David Beveridge wrote:
>
>> One problem with offering a paid support version of SME server is that too
>> few people will need it, as SME server is reliable and easy to use out of
>> the box.
> Yes, and for that we are hoist on our own petard. May be we should make
> it more difficult to use then ?
>
> Is it so hard to explain the reason there is a cost is all the time and
> effort that went in to making it easy, and reliable ?
>
> And are you telling us that you install it ALL for free. And you charge
> nothing to the client for support ?
>
> If so, exactly how do you earn a living ?
>
> How much did you charge them for that Ubuntu system ? You didn't do it
> all for free did you ? So the software was free, but you weren't.
>
> Why not add a small cost in your charges and pay that back to the
> companies that make the 'free' software you use ?
>
>> In many cases, customers wanting to pay for an OS have opted for Microsoft
>> SBS. I think SBS2003 cost about $600 bucks on top of the hardware and over
>> 10 years was only $60/year if you want to look at it that way. Of course
>> it costs more if you want the professional version or more CALs, but still
>> not that expensive for a business. May of these customers are switching to
>> Office365, and that's around $10-$20/user/month.
>>
> So that's about $120 per year, per user minimum. 10 seats, $1,200 per
> year. Hmmmm. No wonder Microsoft wants to get you off the "pay once, use
> it for 10+ years" model.
>
> And are you also telling us that the client would object to paying say
> $50 - $100 per year, that goes in your fees (that you probably wouldn't
> itemise anyhow ?)
>
> And equally, bearing in mind that Koozali SME might be open source to
> download and use, how do you propose that we raise the money to a) fund
> the hardware it is built on and b) try to to fund more development
> (which people keep asking us to do - "can you x, y, z" ?)
>
> Sorry - I still don't get the mentality that says 'the software should
> be free to use and both me and my client should have to pay nothing for
> it, but I can charge the client for my time'
>
> I guess the problem all stems from the 'Free' bit when referring to Open
> Source. Koozali SME is Open Source. That doesn't necessarily make it 'free'.

It is my understanding that the SOURCE CODE is open source. Not the
added value of binaries, repo's, updates, wiki, forums, mailing lists....

>
> Ultimately, just saying 'don't charge' is not an answer.
>
> We have costs that have to be paid for. We would like to invest in the
> system to make it better. The question is how do we fund that ?
>
> Donations HAVE increased over recent times, but not much.
>
> To pay for a full time developer to work on a regular basis we need a
> lot more, and reliably too.
>
> Personally I could happily go out and sell and promote Koozali SME both
> in companies, at exhibitions or wherever, but I can't afford the time
> out of work without pay, or the travel costs to do so (I bribed my wife
> to let me go to FOSDEM, but even that was tricky !) And Koozali can't
> afford to pay for that either.
>
> We need to raise the name and profile of Koozali to attract more users,
> and developers, but without investment it isn't going to happen any time
> soon.
>
> Lots of questions to look at this year.
> _______________________________________________
> Server Development Discussion
> To unsubscribe, e-mail devinfo-***@lists.contribs.org
> Searchable archive at http://lists.contribs.org/mailman/public/devinfo/

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David Beveridge
2015-01-02 06:04:57 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, Jan 2, 2015 at 9:14 AM, John Crisp <***@safeandsoundit.co.uk>
wrote:

> On 01/01/15 23:39, David Beveridge wrote:
>
> > One problem with offering a paid support version of SME server is that
> too
> > few people will need it, as SME server is reliable and easy to use out of
> > the box.
>
> Yes, and for that we are hoist on our own petard. May be we should make
> it more difficult to use then ?
>

Indeed you could, eg ISO images posted to out for $50 each instead of free
download.
I doubt many people have the skill needed to compile all the SRPMS and roll
their own ISO.
Or better yet, charge for access to the update REPOs.
Just make sure you don't loose all your user base over to NethServer.


> Is it so hard to explain the reason there is a cost is all the time and
> effort that went in to making it easy, and reliable ?
>
> And are you telling us that you install it ALL for free. And you charge
> nothing to the client for support ?
>

Of course not


>
> If so, exactly how do you earn a living ?
>
> How much did you charge them for that Ubuntu system ? You didn't do it
> all for free did you ? So the software was free, but you weren't.
>

Actually, I didn't set it up, I just came in after to the other guy left,
and you're right, I'm not free.
I don't think any company has a zero IT budget.


>
> Why not add a small cost in your charges and pay that back to the
> companies that make the 'free' software you use ?
>
>
I know a company I work for pays around $10000/year to MariaDB developers.
As I mentioned earlier, we also had RedHat Subscriptions for a while.


> >
> > In many cases, customers wanting to pay for an OS have opted for
> Microsoft
> > SBS. I think SBS2003 cost about $600 bucks on top of the hardware and
> over
> > 10 years was only $60/year if you want to look at it that way. Of course
> > it costs more if you want the professional version or more CALs, but
> still
> > not that expensive for a business. May of these customers are switching
> to
> > Office365, and that's around $10-$20/user/month.
> >
>
> So that's about $120 per year, per user minimum. 10 seats, $1,200 per
> year. Hmmmm. No wonder Microsoft wants to get you off the "pay once, use
> it for 10+ years" model.
>
> Indeed, great opportunity isn't it. Strike now.!


> And are you also telling us that the client would object to paying say
> $50 - $100 per year, that goes in your fees (that you probably wouldn't
> itemise anyhow ?)
>
> And equally, bearing in mind that Koozali SME might be open source to
> download and use, how do you propose that we raise the money to a) fund
> the hardware it is built on and b) try to to fund more development
> (which people keep asking us to do - "can you x, y, z" ?)
>
> Sorry - I still don't get the mentality that says 'the software should
> be free to use and both me and my client should have to pay nothing for
> it, but I can charge the client for my time'
>

I think that's a fair comment.

>
> I guess the problem all stems from the 'Free' bit when referring to Open
> Source. Koozali SME is Open Source. That doesn't necessarily make it
> 'free'.
>
> Ultimately, just saying 'don't charge' is not an answer.
>
> We have costs that have to be paid for. We would like to invest in the
> system to make it better. The question is how do we fund that ?
>
> Donations HAVE increased over recent times, but not much.
>

I do not have any customers using SME for quite some time now,
so I'm not likely to contribute here; Maybe I should stop lurking.


>
> To pay for a full time developer to work on a regular basis we need a
> lot more, and reliably too.
>
> Personally I could happily go out and sell and promote Koozali SME both
> in companies, at exhibitions or wherever, but I can't afford the time
> out of work without pay, or the travel costs to do so (I bribed my wife
> to let me go to FOSDEM, but even that was tricky !) And Koozali can't
> afford to pay for that either.
>
> We need to raise the name and profile of Koozali to attract more users,
> and developers, but without investment it isn't going to happen any time
> soon.
>
> Lots of questions to look at this year.
> _______________________________________________
> Server Development Discussion
> To unsubscribe, e-mail devinfo-***@lists.contribs.org
> Searchable archive at http://lists.contribs.org/mailman/public/devinfo/
>
John Crisp
2015-01-02 10:07:31 UTC
Permalink
On 02/01/15 07:04, David Beveridge wrote:

>>
>> So that's about $120 per year, per user minimum. 10 seats, $1,200 per
>> year. Hmmmm. No wonder Microsoft wants to get you off the "pay once, use
>> it for 10+ years" model.
>>
>> Indeed, great opportunity isn't it. Strike now.!
>

We're trying - cash is the key... :-)
>>
>
> I do not have any customers using SME for quite some time now,
> so I'm not likely to contribute here; Maybe I should stop lurking.
>
>

No, lurk away, and keep commenting - one problem we seriously have is
talking to people who we HAVE lost, and asking why, and what we do to
attract them back.... that is extremely valuable

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David Harper
2015-01-02 10:13:27 UTC
Permalink
No, lurk away, and keep commenting - one problem we seriously have istalking to people who we HAVE lost, and asking why, and what we do toattract them back.... that is extremely valuable I've already touched on this in my own thread, but the major reasons that SME is currently not on my recommendation list are Samba 4/Active Directory and Horde 5.----David HarperPhone: +61 (0) 421 550 063Email: ***@hotmail.comWeb: www.david-harper.com
John Crisp
2015-01-02 18:56:59 UTC
Permalink
On 02/01/15 11:13, David Harper wrote:
> No, lurk away, and keep commenting - one problem we seriously have is
> talking to people who we HAVE lost, and asking why, and what we do to
> attract them back.... that is extremely valuable
>
>
>
> I've already touched on this in my own thread, but the major reasons
> that SME is currently not on my recommendation list are Samba 4/Active
> Directory and Horde 5.
>

Trying to fix that :-) In which case please stay with us as we are
going to need some serious help with testing before long.....

If you want to help test Horde 5 then have a look here for starters :

http://bugs.contribs.org/show_bug.cgi?id=6653

Not sure if there are other bugs on Horde 5 - worth a look.

The sooner we can get it working fully the sooner you can start using it :-)
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John Crisp
2015-01-02 23:46:11 UTC
Permalink
Hi Jonathan,

On 02/01/15 21:06, PS Data Systems wrote:
> Hello All,
>
>

I understand your comments and concerns, and they are well received.

Although it is sad that more of your clients do not use Koozali SME
server, I am really pleased that you feel able to make a comment, and
express your feelings.

For too long people have sat, and watched, and said nothing.

Even though your comments may not be what we want to hear, we have to
listen, take the comments on board, and try to work out the best way
forward.

We are very lucky that there are still loyal users like yourself that
have stayed and feel able to contribute.

We need to understand what our users want, and what they need. We need
to understand why they have left, and what we can do to bring them back.

So, all you lurkers out there (and I know there are many) please stand
up and make your voice heard.

We cannot promise you miracles, or fixes tomorrow, but you have the
ability to help shape the future of your distribution.

We need your help and support in any way you can.

Please keep the comments coming - we are listening.... :-)

B. Rgds
John
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David Harper
2015-01-03 01:46:35 UTC
Permalink
So what's on your recommendation list? I don't know many SME distros using Samba4.

Unhappily there's only Zentyal for the no-cost option (which I tend to avoid due to its release cycle issues).

After that the choices are usually:

Univention Corporate Server with Zarafa and SEP sesamClearOS with Zarafa [provided there are no issues with data transfer to the US as that is their backup method]On-premise Windows Server with Exchange and SharePoint Foundation [basically a DIY SBS]
In essence, this is a situation where features trump price.

----
David Harper
Phone: +61 (0) 421 550 063
Email: ***@hotmail.com
Web: www.david-harper.com
John Crisp
2015-01-03 03:06:12 UTC
Permalink
On 03/01/15 02:46, David Harper wrote:
> So what's on your recommendation list? I don't know many SME
> distros using Samba4.
>
>

As advised Horde 5 is there for testing.

Greg Zartman is working on a full Samba 4 implementation - I understand
that it works, but he is thrashing away at building it in to Koozali
SME. We hope that before long he will have some alpha code to test....

So if we had these two features enabled, what should be the price ?

:-)


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Terry Fage
2015-01-03 03:22:16 UTC
Permalink
Just sticking my head up here with my two bobs worth, 2 cents doesn't
cut it. There would have to be many like me, dare I say the silent
majority :-)

I am not in the IT industry nor do I levee a fee for any of the things I
do for a number of not for profit groups that I have setup SME server
for. I am far from being a IT professional come developer or any other
label used in the industry. I am an individual who gets satisfaction
from computers and what they can do, by trade I am a vehicle mechanic.

I have a home server just to have a home server and home network with a
few things hanging off it :-) and a box with VMWare as a VM lab.

I use SME server because it is sooooo easy to install, setup, configure
and from then on it just WORKS.

For the same reasons I have deployed it to 5 NFPs, two on dedicated HP
N40ls, 3 others onto 2nd hand hardware of various specs and power. Why,
because it just WORKS and they are able to learn how to administer the
basics easily and quickly.

The alternatives that are suggested from everywhere you go and ask for
advice on a server distro for personal use and small office situations
is always primarily, Ubuntu, CentOS, MS for paid and then a smattering
of others, I have tried them all, except MS, not simple to configure,
not simple to maintain, not easy to administer. Not suitable for groups
with zero knowledge and who have no interest in developing it, they just
want to use it and have it WORK.

We do not push the advantages of SME server over the others, did I say
hows easy it is to admin and that it just WORKS. Most ppl couldn't give
a rats for the bells and whistles they just want it to work and have
somewhere they can come ask a question and get an answer with out being
told to RTFM or be told xyz for a sys admin to decipher etc.

As is, it does all that I want and the NFPs want and it does it without
fuss, don't need the latest and greatest addins or updates, it just WORKS..

Just my point of view as a home user not a business one.

Did I say how it just WORKS
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John Crisp
2015-01-03 03:31:35 UTC
Permalink
On 03/01/15 04:22, Terry Fage wrote:

> Did I say how it just WORKS

You missed out how much WORK you do for us :-)

Mr Terry Fage. Shining example :-)

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Terry Fage
2015-01-03 04:10:33 UTC
Permalink
On 3/01/2015 2:31 PM, John Crisp wrote:
> On 03/01/15 04:22, Terry Fage wrote:
> >> Did I say how it just WORKS
>
> You missed out how much WORK you do for us :-)
> Mr Terry Fage. Shining example :-)

Thanks but I do feel a debt, I don't say to the ppl I help pay X dollars
or get stuffed..I choose to give a little back..

Dare I say I don't see the logic of some, if you charge someone a buck
to use something then a kick back of some value is a no brainer.

If not dollars, which would be more than enough, then put some time into
actually doing something here, always bugs to verify, wiki to maintain
forums to answer questions, many do just that, there are equally many
who don't do either.

Back on song, knowledge is everything, Ubuntu, CentOS get the writeups,
may I suggest not because they are necessarily the best for the job.

If you were to do a side by side test of a basic system for home /small
offcie use, install, configure, deploy SME would be in front, as to
ongoing admin, piss it in. How many ppl wpuld know that or be told that.

This forum http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/forum/39 and
http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/forum/139 would have the question asked
almost weekly to recommend a suitable home/small office server. For my
and maybe one others suggestion of SME there would be 20 for Ubuntu or
CentOS, are they better? Not for what I use it for or dare I say many
like me.

Its not a matter of build it and they will come, you have to tell them
and repeat it ad nauseam

Yes I know sounds simple...
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Matthias Schuh
2015-01-03 01:29:20 UTC
Permalink
Hi All,

Abstract, because my reply to this thread(s) became way longer than
originally intented during the last few hours:

When SME-Server is being transformed into a "commercial" product
(foundation based or not), there is a chance that the project will
significantly lose momentum both development- and community-wise.

Forcing people to pay for the product, documentation or access to
community support IMHO is a step in the wrong direction, also with
regards to the highly competitive market situation it would place
SME-Server in. Efforts should instead be focussed on increasing
donations to keep up the project and community infrastructure.

mats






<long version below:>

Hi All,

interesting (and a familiar sounding) discussion, prompting me to do my
first post on the devinfo-list...
I am rather a long-time user than a long-time developer of SME-Server
(and not a native speaker), but please bear with me :-) From the view of
someone offering commercial IT support for small to medium enterprises,
here's my 5 ct:

I started using SME-Server for my own (one-man) business and family
somewhere around version 6. Up to that point, I had been rolling my own
FOSS based solutions for the functionality SME-Server was offering
(mail, gateway etc.), but realized that over time this grassroots
approach simply took up too much of my own (business and life) time.

I have happily been using SME-Server for my purposes since. Recently I
decided to get a bit more involved with bug-hunting and eventually
-fixing for SME-Server, initially because I encountered a few lose ends
and rough edges while migrating to version 9 and wanted to help sort
them out, but also because I felt it was time to "give something back"
to a project I have enjoyed using for quite some time, now that I
considered myself "skilled" enough in terms of understanding a bit how
things work under the hood in SME-Server (I may be woefully wrong there,
though :-) )

Two years ago I deployed a SME-Server to a medium size business for
which I do IT support contract work. So admittedly I do generate some
small revenue out of supporting an SME-Server installation by now
(nothing to phone home about, though, due to the fact that SME-Server
once set up usually requires very little attention apart from regular
updates).

This client recently asked me how he could "give back" to the folks who
are developing SME server, because he was so pleased with the stability
of the product - obviously he was being aware that although I was
providing the paid IT support, I was not the one developing and
"selling" SME-Server as a product. I happily directed him to the
donation page of the SME/Koozali website.

For me, these are two sides of the same coin, of a freely available open
source project, receiving developer/bughunting/documenting time and
donations from people who think the resulting product "is worth it".
Probably I am not the only one using and benefitting from (and
occasionally contributing to) the SME-Server project in this fashion and
if my contribution so far in terms of community involvment or monetary
effort have not been sufficient so far, I duely apologize.

Maybe I am being naive here, too.

Anyway, my key reasons for chosing SME-Server over several other
available OSS alternatives back in the day were (in order of personal
importance):

- open source, standard based (a must-have)
- unrestrictedly available documentation and community resources (wiki,
forum)
- sound, long-term oriented update and upgrade strategy
- extensibility (through contribs, apps, 3rd party software...)
- hackability (ie. explore and modify the system at own risk in order to
understand how things work)

Would I back then have chosen SME-Server over "competing" FOSS solutions
if any of these key items would have been paid/restricted options only?
Highly unlikely.

Would my client have taken my recommendation to use SME-Server instead
of a "commercial" offering seriously if I would not have been able to
advocate the benefits of the key items mentioned above? With the client
coming from a windows background and having been socialized in his
business with closed source, commercial software: not very likely either.

Now don't get me wrong, as a freely (also as in "free beer"!) available
solution SME-Server absolutely delivers, software and documentation
wise. It is not the sexiest SBS solution out there (sorry guys!). But it
does its job, and does it very sound, elegantly and well.

For me, it is a - not so small anymore - niche that SME-Server more than
aptly fills, but (realistically) still a niche, that would be opened up
to a very competitive market once SME-Server goes "commercial".

I am definitely not sure if this somehow "going commercial" idea is the
right direction to turn to for SME-Server (and it makes me reconsider my
recently spurred motivation to become more involved with this community
project, sorry to say, but that's how it is).

Some thoughts on some of the aspects mentioned in these threads so far:

a) offering paid only access to (parts) of the wiki, forae and
documentation:
that would be a showstopper for me and probably many others.
Documentation is key, not only for using, but also for evaluating a
product in the first place.
I cannot estimate to what degree SME-Server depends on "quality micro
contributions" in form of constructive bug reports, intelligent
questions asked on the forums, small edits to the wiki documentation or
the like, compared to the vast efforts of a - probably too- few
enthusiast main developers.
But if these micro contributions are of any significance, be prepared to
lose them to a significant degree (and instead get an increase in the
more agressively and demanding requests people sometimes get rebuffed
for on the contrib forums if they do not recognize that SME is a
community effort :-) "But hey, I _paid_ for it...").

b) keeping up the generally high community and volunteer commitment to
the project once it goes commercial may become unlikely.
Once people have to pay for a product like SME-Server, expectations on
the level of quality of the product, its documentation and product
support will very likely rise significantly. At the very same time, the
willingness of new users to voluntarily contribute to the project will
very likely drop significantly - why should they want to, what would be
their incentive to do so?

c) In addition, while I consider core SME-Server (9) and contribs to be
mature and stable products, bluntly put there's also a bunch of contribs
which are not there yet, or are "still work in progress", and
documentation in the wiki is at least in parts out-dated or obsolete -
or at least not in a consistent state I would expect if I were to pay
real money for a enterprise product. The translations (I can only refer
to German here) contain some significant errors which I am accepting to
deal with in a community product, but not in a commercial setting where
I am eventually going to sell the product to a paying customer.
I think there will be a comparatively big community effort needed to
bring all these up to par, even if the potential revenue from "selling"
SME-Server will allow to fund 1-2 full-time developers at some time in
the future.

d) integration with cloud services: not yet a key "selling point" where
I live...
From my observation SME-Server seems to appeal the most to more
conservatively minded crowd of descision-makers (not necessarily
admins), who want a long-term in-house solution for mail, data sharing
and such, on a stable technological base. These guys are increasingly
feeling uneasy at the thought of having to put all of their business
data into the hands of some mega-corporation (let alone up into these
corporation's cloud(s)).

e) I think making people pay for "premium" contribs, apps, functionality
is a questionable approach. Will (paid) developer time in the future be
dedicated mostly towards this premium stuff, because that's where the
revenue comes from, then?
The business plan outlined in one of the previous posts IMHO seriously
lacks a kind of market analysis with regards to the competition and
where SME-Server would be placed therein. Making people pay for
downloading the ISOs will most probably rather make most people laugh -
before it makes them go away. As someone has mentioned before, this
approach is so very 80's it makes _me_ want to go away, and I _am_ a
nostalgic person :-)

f) I do not see how paid support through a subscription would work
within this business model either - I do support for other clients who
use commercial, enterprise grade Linux server applications and support
services, so I think I can put it in perspective looking at how many
people seem to be actively involved ATM with koozali and SME-Server, and
to what degree.
I am also missing the "expenses" side of the business plan - what is the
actual amount of money needed per year to keep the SME-Project
infrastructure up and running in the present form of a community based
project? I am willing to volunteer some of my own time and money (where
I am able to) and to coerce potential clients into donating to the
project if they benefit from it, but not on a "blue skies" basis, and
not for someone elses sole profit.

g) The only sensible way I can think of right now to generate some kind
of "revenue" to pay for the expenses for the SME-Server project
infrastructure is through donations to the Koozali foundation. Either
from (non-contributing) folks selling support for SME-Server to business
clients, or by these clients themselves. Morale pressure to make
(regular) donations can and should be increased on all parties involved.
Yes, it means lot of talking and explanation (free vs. "free") to
clients and userbase, and no, money towards the project will probably
not roll in in a steady, reliable flow at all times.

As I said, just my (now 50, rather than) 5 ct.

cheers, mats


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John Crisp
2015-01-03 03:51:42 UTC
Permalink
All good points Mats, and than you for your involvement. A few more like
you would make a big difference !

Just a quickish precis....

On 03/01/15 02:29, Matthias Schuh wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> When SME-Server is being transformed into a "commercial" product
> (foundation based or not), there is a chance that the project will
> significantly lose momentum both development- and community-wise.
>

I don't think anyone here ever felt that SME should be a 'commercial
product'.

More commercially orientated or aware, but not necessarily a commercial
product.


> Forcing people to pay for the product, documentation or access to
> community support IMHO is a step in the wrong direction, also with
> regards to the highly competitive market situation it would place
> SME-Server in. Efforts should instead be focussed on increasing
> donations to keep up the project and community infrastructure.
>
.......


The unavoidable question that I have long posed is that we have expenses
that need to be paid for on a regular basis, and how do we pay for that.

For too long no one has ever considered what it actually costs to build
Koozali SME.

Quite simply, donations barely cover the costs. They are sporadic and
insufficient to rely on. They certainly don't generate anywhere near
enough to allow us to invest in the distribution.

Costs this year were about USD 8,000 (we will publish last years figures
shortly). That included a period of time when we were paying for both
the old system and the new one.

Income was about USD 11,000 BUT there was one large donation that
without which we would not have had enough donations to cover costs this
year by quite a large margin.

Fortunately, since we added the notices to the server manager pages and
tried to raise awareness about the cash situation, donations have risen,
and over the last year we have built a small cash buffer so it wasn't
critical.

Nonetheless every month some of us play wait and see to find out if we
have enough money to pay the bills. It isn't much fun quite frankly.

Especially when you know there are a lot of people out there earning
good money from it, and not paying a dime back. If we had USD10 per year
from every install we would be laughing.

We probably actually receive less than 30 CENTS per server per year.

We have upped the ante on donations over the last year. How else can we
push for them ? We put notices all over the wiki and server manager (not
so popular, but needs must) etc. Where else ? If we do too much then
users complain - they weren't happy about the server manager panel.......

At the same time we have users saying they would like to see this
functionality, more up to date panels, or contribs, or whatever, but
very few seem to want to help, or to pay for us to employ some help.

So we are stuck between a rock and a hard place. Everyone wants more. No
one is prepared to pay enough to get that.

I do know that there are a number of companies that would be happy to
pay to have a proper 'partner program' - that doesn't meant Koozali SME
becomes a commercial product. But the money generated could be invested
back in to the distro for its benefit.

Some form of paid for advertising for interested parties on the sites
might be worth looking at too - this would benefit users who often do
not know where to to turn to if they need professional assistance.

None of this would prevent Koozali SME from remaining open source. In
actual fact it would HELP keep it open source by helping to fund the
infrastructure required to build it.

I have no real idea of how best to do this, but something needs doing.

So any solutions gratefully received :-)

B. Rgds
John


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Terry Fage
2015-01-03 04:18:01 UTC
Permalink
If somone is prepared to pay $$ to have their name attachjed to a
proper 'partner program' - or have some form of paid for advertising,
well to me they are only doing what some won't, spend a dollar.

It wont cost me a cent for them to do that, why would I have an issue,
actually why SHOULD I have an issue, there are no levels of entitlement
here.

Now starting to cool off here, only 38c :-(
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Mark Phillips
2015-01-03 06:22:13 UTC
Permalink
I am a consulting software engineer living in the US. I send US$250 to SME each year. In the recent ten years my work has ebbed and flowed dramatically, especially during a couple of years where it seemed no one wanted US based engineers. So far, during the lean times I have been able to scrape together the $250. If a fee had been required in the worst of the lean years I would have been forced to abandon SME.

My clients have often been startup businesses with big dreams and little or no capital who need my help for free. The good ones make up for the pro bono work *if* they make it to profitability. SME fits this case perfectly. I have asked clients to send a contribution, or have sent it myself, when I set them up with SME. I have suggested US$50.00 per install to the clients.

I appreciate the volunteer origins of SME and the zero cost of entry because it lets me support these people and companies. Sadly, the skilled volunteers who have made SME a great product also need to eat and sleep indoors, which is why you are having this discussion. All FOSS projects with legs have developed new financial models, SaaS being one. A few companies have succeeded but SaaS does not fit all project types. Resistance to SaaS is building in the market in spite of happy talk among the Wall Street types. Further, many development companies are finding the SaaS approach a race to the bottom of a financial disaster experienced in slow motion like a tricycle rusting to dust. A corollary can be seen in the "cloud" market as security breaches mount and OS upgrades "lose" user data. A case for SME can be made here.

For those like me, a volunteer subscription model helps. Time permitting I would love to contribute code. Until that blessed day arrives I try to be helpful in other ways.

Perhaps two or three methods of participation, instead of a product tier structure, might succeed. The nagware idea seems right-headed but lacks a "hook". It needs to be combined with an incentive; maybe a more provocative value proposition or a VAR channel model. The ownCloud approach is interesting too. Regardless of the decision, one thing is certain: a program must be consistently promoted over years to succeed.

Hth,

Mark Phillips
Mophilly Technology Inc.


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David Harper
2015-01-03 05:42:51 UTC
Permalink
> At the same time we have users saying they would like to see this> functionality, more up to date panels, or contribs, or whatever, but> very few seem to want to help, or to pay for us to employ some help. My company would potentially be interested in this, but there would have to be some kind of demonstrable financial return, which of course for a free as in beer product is a bit of a problem. I would propose a mixed model where SOHO audience stuff (file and print, AD, workstation backup) are free but business stuff (email, VPN, tape backup etc.) are like Red Hat, where only the source is available freely and ISOs and updates are paid.> So we are stuck between a rock and a hard place. Everyone wants more. No> one is prepared to pay enough to get that. Indeed. Perhaps a Kickstarter initiative? Any idea what sort of money we would be talking to get these new features (AD, Horde 5, IPSEC VPN, integrate Dungog contribs) finalised?> I do know that there are a number of companies that would be happy to> pay to have a proper 'partner program' - that doesn't meant Koozali SME> becomes a commercial product. But the money generated could be invested> back in to the distro for its benefit. Add my company to that list. We were a Dungog partner back in the day.----David HarperPhone: +61 (0) 421 550 063Email: ***@hotmail.comWeb: www.david-harper.com
Hsing-Foo Wang
2015-01-03 07:25:56 UTC
Permalink
On 01/03/2015 04:51 AM, John Crisp wrote:
> All good points Mats, and than you for your involvement. A few more like
> you would make a big difference !
Fully agree, thanks Mats.
> Just a quickish precis....
>
> On 03/01/15 02:29, Matthias Schuh wrote:
>> Hi All,
>>
>> When SME-Server is being transformed into a "commercial" product
>> (foundation based or not), there is a chance that the project will
>> significantly lose momentum both development- and community-wise.

Let's separate 2 things here. We need to separate the "commercial
feeling" into two parts:

1. Commercial as in sales, product against a (fair) price
2. Marketing as in advertise product and it's advantages to a broader
audience

So for the sake of channeling idea's and possibilities, let's be
specific on 1 or 2 above. Where we tend to focus on 1 only in these
"commercial" discussions :-)

I feel we that on the (mid)short term we should focus on #2, marketing
and design a partner program, and continue to think about #1 in the
background.

This community has assets that are possibly valuable to partners such as
vendors, distributors, head hunters, sourcing companies, (support)
service companies etc. Next to the consensus and proof we all have (and
indicated so many times, "It simply works". There you have a slogan to
start with, where partners can hook up on with their portfolio. ;-)

John C. and I have shared some very rough and high level idea's on #2,
and we sure love to hear more (detailed) idea's from this community on
it. Good for us, good for the partner, good for SME Users, good for new
SME Users.

So here are some leads to chew on and spit out some idea's :-)

* "Works with Koozali SME Server"
* Please visit our partner page at http://koozali.org/partners/xxx
* Proudly sponsored by
* "Are you looking for new challenge"
* Contrib sponsored by...
* Welcome to the yearly Koozali Partner event. "Paris 2016", "Berlin
2017", "London 2018", "Milano 2019" ;-)
* "Koozali SME Server is accredited by..."

So for partners it could start with something like "You wanna play?
you've got to pay" :-)

Interested in your thoughts and idea's.

Thanks,
-HF





> I don't think anyone here ever felt that SME should be a 'commercial
> product'.
>
> More commercially orientated or aware, but not necessarily a commercial
> product.
>
>
>> Forcing people to pay for the product, documentation or access to
>> community support IMHO is a step in the wrong direction, also with
>> regards to the highly competitive market situation it would place
>> SME-Server in. Efforts should instead be focussed on increasing
>> donations to keep up the project and community infrastructure.
>>
> .......
>
>
> The unavoidable question that I have long posed is that we have expenses
> that need to be paid for on a regular basis, and how do we pay for that.
>
> For too long no one has ever considered what it actually costs to build
> Koozali SME.
>
> Quite simply, donations barely cover the costs. They are sporadic and
> insufficient to rely on. They certainly don't generate anywhere near
> enough to allow us to invest in the distribution.
>
> Costs this year were about USD 8,000 (we will publish last years figures
> shortly). That included a period of time when we were paying for both
> the old system and the new one.
>
> Income was about USD 11,000 BUT there was one large donation that
> without which we would not have had enough donations to cover costs this
> year by quite a large margin.
>
> Fortunately, since we added the notices to the server manager pages and
> tried to raise awareness about the cash situation, donations have risen,
> and over the last year we have built a small cash buffer so it wasn't
> critical.
>
> Nonetheless every month some of us play wait and see to find out if we
> have enough money to pay the bills. It isn't much fun quite frankly.
>
> Especially when you know there are a lot of people out there earning
> good money from it, and not paying a dime back. If we had USD10 per year
> from every install we would be laughing.
>
> We probably actually receive less than 30 CENTS per server per year.
>
> We have upped the ante on donations over the last year. How else can we
> push for them ? We put notices all over the wiki and server manager (not
> so popular, but needs must) etc. Where else ? If we do too much then
> users complain - they weren't happy about the server manager panel.......
>
> At the same time we have users saying they would like to see this
> functionality, more up to date panels, or contribs, or whatever, but
> very few seem to want to help, or to pay for us to employ some help.
>
> So we are stuck between a rock and a hard place. Everyone wants more. No
> one is prepared to pay enough to get that.
>
> I do know that there are a number of companies that would be happy to
> pay to have a proper 'partner program' - that doesn't meant Koozali SME
> becomes a commercial product. But the money generated could be invested
> back in to the distro for its benefit.
>
> Some form of paid for advertising for interested parties on the sites
> might be worth looking at too - this would benefit users who often do
> not know where to to turn to if they need professional assistance.
>
> None of this would prevent Koozali SME from remaining open source. In
> actual fact it would HELP keep it open source by helping to fund the
> infrastructure required to build it.
>
> I have no real idea of how best to do this, but something needs doing.
>
> So any solutions gratefully received :-)
>
> B. Rgds
> John
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Server Development Discussion
> To unsubscribe, e-mail devinfo-***@lists.contribs.org
> Searchable archive at http://lists.contribs.org/mailman/public/devinfo/

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Matthias Schuh
2015-01-03 14:33:30 UTC
Permalink
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

John, thanks for the yearly cost figures and clearing things up, this
puts the discussion a bit in perspective for me (as a newcomer to the
show).

I think a (still donation based) partnership program may be a step in
the right direction, especially with the new koozali website around
the corner, which I feel has great potential to cover some of the
issues we are discussing here, with respect to both promoting
SME-Server in general and to generate some revenue from it to cover
the costs for the project.

Maybe a feasible option would be to offer two levels of donation based
partnership involvment: one based on relatively small donations,
entitling the partner to just put a company name and link to his
website on the koozali page (say, in tabular form), and one based on
more generous/regular donations, entitling the partner to put his
company banner ad, more detailed description of the company's services
etc. on the website (eg. like FWS is presented on
http://www.koozali.org/partners/find-a-partner).

While the first level would focus simply on helping SME users to find
a regional partner they can work with, the second level would set
focus more on the companies offering SME support and actively want to
advertise their expertise through the koozali website.

If we find a way to hand out receipts for donations from companies,
all the better, because in some countries donations are tax deductible
for companies - an additional incentive maybe.

Me as a company will happily be taking part in this, albeit on a lower
donation level rather than a high one, simply due to the fact that the
revenue my company receives from supporting SME installations apart
from my own is comparatively small. In addition, I will of course
communicate to (potential) clients the need for supporting the project
through donations on their behalf, should they decide to use and stay
with SME-Server.

Re offering Owncloud as a paid feature I do not quite see the point,
given that Owncloud can be installed comparatively easy in shared
hosting environments and be tied into existing authentication mechanisms.

In general I am not very fond of the approach to make access to
certain features harder than need be, just in order to make people
pay. I don't think that is how open source (should) works.

Cheers, Mats

Am 03.01.2015 um 04:51 schrieb John Crisp:
> All good points Mats, and than you for your involvement. A few more
> like you would make a big difference !

ah...now. blush.

>
> Just a quickish precis....
>
> On 03/01/15 02:29, Matthias Schuh wrote:
>> Hi All,
>>
>> When SME-Server is being transformed into a "commercial" product
>> (foundation based or not), there is a chance that the project
>> will significantly lose momentum both development- and
>> community-wise.
>>
>
> I don't think anyone here ever felt that SME should be a
> 'commercial product'.
>
> More commercially orientated or aware, but not necessarily a
> commercial product.
>
>
>> Forcing people to pay for the product, documentation or access
>> to community support IMHO is a step in the wrong direction, also
>> with regards to the highly competitive market situation it would
>> place SME-Server in. Efforts should instead be focussed on
>> increasing donations to keep up the project and community
>> infrastructure.
>>
> .......
>
>
> The unavoidable question that I have long posed is that we have
> expenses that need to be paid for on a regular basis, and how do we
> pay for that.
>
> For too long no one has ever considered what it actually costs to
> build Koozali SME.
>
> Quite simply, donations barely cover the costs. They are sporadic
> and insufficient to rely on. They certainly don't generate anywhere
> near enough to allow us to invest in the distribution.
>
> Costs this year were about USD 8,000 (we will publish last years
> figures shortly). That included a period of time when we were
> paying for both the old system and the new one.
>
> Income was about USD 11,000 BUT there was one large donation that
> without which we would not have had enough donations to cover costs
> this year by quite a large margin.
>
> Fortunately, since we added the notices to the server manager pages
> and tried to raise awareness about the cash situation, donations
> have risen, and over the last year we have built a small cash
> buffer so it wasn't critical.
>
> Nonetheless every month some of us play wait and see to find out if
> we have enough money to pay the bills. It isn't much fun quite
> frankly.
>
> Especially when you know there are a lot of people out there
> earning good money from it, and not paying a dime back. If we had
> USD10 per year from every install we would be laughing.
>
> We probably actually receive less than 30 CENTS per server per
> year.
>
> We have upped the ante on donations over the last year. How else
> can we push for them ? We put notices all over the wiki and server
> manager (not so popular, but needs must) etc. Where else ? If we do
> too much then users complain - they weren't happy about the server
> manager panel.......
>
> At the same time we have users saying they would like to see this
> functionality, more up to date panels, or contribs, or whatever,
> but very few seem to want to help, or to pay for us to employ some
> help.
>
> So we are stuck between a rock and a hard place. Everyone wants
> more. No one is prepared to pay enough to get that.
>
> I do know that there are a number of companies that would be happy
> to pay to have a proper 'partner program' - that doesn't meant
> Koozali SME becomes a commercial product. But the money generated
> could be invested back in to the distro for its benefit.
>
> Some form of paid for advertising for interested parties on the
> sites might be worth looking at too - this would benefit users who
> often do not know where to to turn to if they need professional
> assistance.
>
> None of this would prevent Koozali SME from remaining open source.
> In actual fact it would HELP keep it open source by helping to fund
> the infrastructure required to build it.
>
> I have no real idea of how best to do this, but something needs
> doing.
>
> So any solutions gratefully received :-)
>
> B. Rgds John
>
>
> _______________________________________________ Server Development
> Discussion To unsubscribe, e-mail
> devinfo-***@lists.contribs.org Searchable archive at
> http://lists.contribs.org/mailman/public/devinfo/
>
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_______________________________________________
Server Development Discussion
To unsubscribe, e-mail devinfo-***@lists.contribs.org
Searchable archive at http://lists.contribs.org/mailman/public/devinfo/
Huib de Visser
2015-01-03 13:28:06 UTC
Permalink
Since the code is GPL the first thing that comes to mind when we're talking "Commercial" is: Support.... i don't see how that could be delivered. Besides that i just don't like the idea of a commercial distro/spin in light of SME's history (post Mitel), my feeling is that it will come at the cost of losing (a substantial) part of the community.

Just an other thought for raising funds (in addition to most of HF's suggestions), maybe something with the repo's:
  * Make the freely accessible updates repo a bit more 'edgy' and a fairly paid business updates repo more 'stable'.
  * Make a contribs installer in the server-manager and a fairly paid repo to go with it for those who prefer convenience over spending time to get familiar with the commandline.

And maybe something to increase the number/quality of contribs (cannot oversee if this would be a good for the long term):
  * Possibility of sponsoring/bounty NFR's (not initial contrib or bugs), and some rating possibilities (contrib/coder/work) to keep things in check. More/better contribs i think would lead to more users, also good for the Foundation.


Just my 2c.



-----Original message-----

> From:Hsing-Foo Wang <***@gmail.com <mailto:***@gmail.com> >
> Sent: Saturday 3rd January 2015 8:30
> To: ***@lists.contribs.org <mailto:***@lists.contribs.org>
> Subject: Re: [devinfo] Foundation - the future of SME....
>
>
> On 01/03/2015 04:51 AM, John Crisp wrote:
> > All good points Mats, and than you for your involvement. A few more like
> > you would make a big difference !
> Fully agree, thanks Mats.
> > Just a quickish precis....
> >
> > On 03/01/15 02:29, Matthias Schuh wrote:
> >> Hi All,
> >>
> >> When SME-Server is being transformed into a "commercial" product
> >> (foundation based or not), there is a chance that the project will
> >> significantly lose momentum both development- and community-wise.
>
> Let's separate 2 things here. We need to separate the "commercial
> feeling" into two parts:
>
> 1. Commercial as in sales, product against a (fair) price
> 2. Marketing as in advertise product and it's advantages to a broader
> audience
>
> So for the sake of channeling idea's and possibilities, let's be
> specific on 1 or 2 above. Where we tend to focus on 1 only in these
> "commercial" discussions :-)
>
> I feel we that on the (mid)short term we should focus on #2, marketing
> and design a partner program, and continue to think about #1 in the
> background.
>
> This community has assets that are possibly valuable to partners such as
> vendors, distributors, head hunters, sourcing companies, (support)
> service companies etc. Next to the consensus and proof we all have (and
> indicated so many times, "It simply works". There you have a slogan to
> start with, where partners can hook up on with their portfolio. ;-)
>
> John C. and I have shared some very rough and high level idea's on #2,
> and we sure love to hear more (detailed) idea's from this community on
> it. Good for us, good for the partner, good for SME Users, good for new
> SME Users.
>
> So here are some leads to chew on and spit out some idea's :-)
>
> * "Works with Koozali SME Server"
> * Please visit our partner page at http://koozali.org/partners/xxx <http://koozali.org/partners/xxx>
> * Proudly sponsored by
> * "Are you looking for new challenge"
> * Contrib sponsored by...
> * Welcome to the yearly Koozali Partner event. "Paris 2016", "Berlin
> 2017", "London 2018", "Milano 2019" ;-)
> * "Koozali SME Server is accredited by..."
>
> So for partners it could start with something like "You wanna play?
> you've got to pay" :-)
>
> Interested in your thoughts and idea's.
>
> Thanks,
> -HF
>
>
>
>
>
> > I don't think anyone here ever felt that SME should be a 'commercial
> > product'.
> >
> > More commercially orientated or aware, but not necessarily a commercial
> > product.
> >
> >
> >> Forcing people to pay for the product, documentation or access to
> >> community support IMHO is a step in the wrong direction, also with
> >> regards to the highly competitive market situation it would place
> >> SME-Server in. Efforts should instead be focussed on increasing
> >> donations to keep up the project and community infrastructure.
> >>
> > .......
> >
> >
> > The unavoidable question that I have long posed is that we have expenses
> > that need to be paid for on a regular basis, and how do we pay for that.
> >
> > For too long no one has ever considered what it actually costs to build
> > Koozali SME.
> >
> > Quite simply, donations barely cover the costs. They are sporadic and
> > insufficient to rely on. They certainly don't generate anywhere near
> > enough to allow us to invest in the distribution.
> >
> > Costs this year were about USD 8,000 (we will publish last years figures
> > shortly). That included a period of time when we were paying for both
> > the old system and the new one.
> >
> > Income was about USD 11,000 BUT there was one large donation that
> > without which we would not have had enough donations to cover costs this
> > year by quite a large margin.
> >
> > Fortunately, since we added the notices to the server manager pages and
> > tried to raise awareness about the cash situation, donations have risen,
> > and over the last year we have built a small cash buffer so it wasn't
> > critical.
> >
> > Nonetheless every month some of us play wait and see to find out if we
> > have enough money to pay the bills. It isn't much fun quite frankly.
> >
> > Especially when you know there are a lot of people out there earning
> > good money from it, and not paying a dime back. If we had USD10 per year
> > from every install we would be laughing.
> >
> > We probably actually receive less than 30 CENTS per server per year.
> >
> > We have upped the ante on donations over the last year. How else can we
> > push for them ? We put notices all over the wiki and server manager (not
> > so popular, but needs must) etc. Where else ? If we do too much then
> > users complain - they weren't happy about the server manager panel.......
> >
> > At the same time we have users saying they would like to see this
> > functionality, more up to date panels, or contribs, or whatever, but
> > very few seem to want to help, or to pay for us to employ some help.
> >
> > So we are stuck between a rock and a hard place. Everyone wants more. No
> > one is prepared to pay enough to get that.
> >
> > I do know that there are a number of companies that would be happy to
> > pay to have a proper 'partner program' - that doesn't meant Koozali SME
> > becomes a commercial product. But the money generated could be invested
> > back in to the distro for its benefit.
> >
> > Some form of paid for advertising for interested parties on the sites
> > might be worth looking at too - this would benefit users who often do
> > not know where to to turn to if they need professional assistance.
> >
> > None of this would prevent Koozali SME from remaining open source. In
> > actual fact it would HELP keep it open source by helping to fund the
> > infrastructure required to build it.
> >
> > I have no real idea of how best to do this, but something needs doing.
> >
> > So any solutions gratefully received :-)
> >
> > B. Rgds
> > John
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Server Development Discussion
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail devinfo-***@lists.contribs.org <mailto:devinfo-***@lists.contribs.org>
> > Searchable archive at http://lists.contribs.org/mailman/public/devinfo <http://lists.contribs.org/mailman/public/devinfo> /
>
> _______________________________________________
> Server Development Discussion
> To unsubscribe, e-mail devinfo-***@lists.contribs.org <mailto:devinfo-***@lists.contribs.org>
> Searchable archive at http://lists.contribs.org/mailman/public/devinfo <http://lists.contribs.org/mailman/public/devinfo> /
>
>
Hsing-Foo Wang
2015-01-03 14:29:50 UTC
Permalink
On 01/03/2015 02:28 PM, Huib de Visser wrote:
> RE: [devinfo] Foundation - the future of SME.... Since the code is GPL
> the first thing that comes to mind when we're talking "Commercial" is:
> Support.... i don't see how that could be delivered. Besides that i
> just don't like the idea of a commercial distro/spin in light of SME's
> history (post Mitel), my feeling is that it will come at the cost of
> losing (a substantial) part of the community.
>
> Just an other thought for raising funds (in addition to most of HF's
> suggestions), maybe something with the repo's:
> * Make the freely accessible updates repo a bit more 'edgy' and a
> fairly paid business updates repo more 'stable'.

Subscription repo's is another great idea. I know Proxmox uses them.

Next to the above 'more edgy repo' we could consider:
1. Split SME updates into 'sme-security-updates' and normal updates
2. Normal update repo's receive updates as they are released
3. The 'sme-security-updates' are released as a normal update once per
quarter year to smetest repo and from there follow the normal release
procedure.
4. Subscription repo 'security' receive security updates immediately.
5. The 'sme-Security-updates' do NOT go through the smetest repo.

Thoughts?

Bugzilla could be used to determine which update goes where by means of
P flags?


> * Make a contribs installer in the server-manager and a fairly paid
> repo to go with it for those who prefer convenience over spending time
> to get familiar with the commandline.
>
> And maybe something to increase the number/quality of contribs (cannot
> oversee if this would be a good for the long term):
> * Possibility of sponsoring/bounty NFR's (not initial contrib or
> bugs), and some rating possibilities (contrib/coder/work) to keep
> things in check. More/better contribs i think would lead to more
> users, also good for the Foundation.
>
>
> Just my 2c.
>
>
>
> -----Original message-----
> > From:Hsing-Foo Wang <***@gmail.com <mailto:***@gmail.com>>
> > Sent: Saturday 3rd January 2015 8:30
> > To:***@lists.contribs.org <mailto:***@lists.contribs.org>
> > Subject: Re: [devinfo] Foundation - the future of SME....
> >
> >
> > On 01/03/2015 04:51 AM, John Crisp wrote:
> > > All good points Mats, and than you for your involvement. A few more like
> > > you would make a big difference !
> > Fully agree, thanks Mats.
> > > Just a quickish precis....
> > >
> > > On 03/01/15 02:29, Matthias Schuh wrote:
> > >> Hi All,
> > >>
> > >> When SME-Server is being transformed into a "commercial" product
> > >> (foundation based or not), there is a chance that the project will
> > >> significantly lose momentum both development- and community-wise.
> >
> > Let's separate 2 things here. We need to separate the "commercial
> > feeling" into two parts:
> >
> > 1. Commercial as in sales, product against a (fair) price
> > 2. Marketing as in advertise product and it's advantages to a broader
> > audience
> >
> > So for the sake of channeling idea's and possibilities, let's be
> > specific on 1 or 2 above. Where we tend to focus on 1 only in these
> > "commercial" discussions :-)
> >
> > I feel we that on the (mid)short term we should focus on #2, marketing
> > and design a partner program, and continue to think about #1 in the
> > background.
> >
> > This community has assets that are possibly valuable to partners such as
> > vendors, distributors, head hunters, sourcing companies, (support)
> > service companies etc. Next to the consensus and proof we all have (and
> > indicated so many times, "It simply works". There you have a slogan to
> > start with, where partners can hook up on with their portfolio. ;-)
> >
> > John C. and I have shared some very rough and high level idea's on #2,
> > and we sure love to hear more (detailed) idea's from this community on
> > it. Good for us, good for the partner, good for SME Users, good for new
> > SME Users.
> >
> > So here are some leads to chew on and spit out some idea's :-)
> >
> > * "Works with Koozali SME Server"
> > * Please visit our partner page athttp://koozali.org/partners/xxx
> > * Proudly sponsored by
> > * "Are you looking for new challenge"
> > * Contrib sponsored by...
> > * Welcome to the yearly Koozali Partner event. "Paris 2016", "Berlin
> > 2017", "London 2018", "Milano 2019" ;-)
> > * "Koozali SME Server is accredited by..."
> >
> > So for partners it could start with something like "You wanna play?
> > you've got to pay" :-)
> >
> > Interested in your thoughts and idea's.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > -HF
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > I don't think anyone here ever felt that SME should be a 'commercial
> > > product'.
> > >
> > > More commercially orientated or aware, but not necessarily a commercial
> > > product.
> > >
> > >
> > >> Forcing people to pay for the product, documentation or access to
> > >> community support IMHO is a step in the wrong direction, also with
> > >> regards to the highly competitive market situation it would place
> > >> SME-Server in. Efforts should instead be focussed on increasing
> > >> donations to keep up the project and community infrastructure.
> > >>
> > > .......
> > >
> > >
> > > The unavoidable question that I have long posed is that we have expenses
> > > that need to be paid for on a regular basis, and how do we pay for that.
> > >
> > > For too long no one has ever considered what it actually costs to build
> > > Koozali SME.
> > >
> > > Quite simply, donations barely cover the costs. They are sporadic and
> > > insufficient to rely on. They certainly don't generate anywhere near
> > > enough to allow us to invest in the distribution.
> > >
> > > Costs this year were about USD 8,000 (we will publish last years figures
> > > shortly). That included a period of time when we were paying for both
> > > the old system and the new one.
> > >
> > > Income was about USD 11,000 BUT there was one large donation that
> > > without which we would not have had enough donations to cover costs this
> > > year by quite a large margin.
> > >
> > > Fortunately, since we added the notices to the server manager pages and
> > > tried to raise awareness about the cash situation, donations have risen,
> > > and over the last year we have built a small cash buffer so it wasn't
> > > critical.
> > >
> > > Nonetheless every month some of us play wait and see to find out if we
> > > have enough money to pay the bills. It isn't much fun quite frankly.
> > >
> > > Especially when you know there are a lot of people out there earning
> > > good money from it, and not paying a dime back. If we had USD10 per year
> > > from every install we would be laughing.
> > >
> > > We probably actually receive less than 30 CENTS per server per year.
> > >
> > > We have upped the ante on donations over the last year. How else can we
> > > push for them ? We put notices all over the wiki and server manager (not
> > > so popular, but needs must) etc. Where else ? If we do too much then
> > > users complain - they weren't happy about the server manager panel.......
> > >
> > > At the same time we have users saying they would like to see this
> > > functionality, more up to date panels, or contribs, or whatever, but
> > > very few seem to want to help, or to pay for us to employ some help.
> > >
> > > So we are stuck between a rock and a hard place. Everyone wants more. No
> > > one is prepared to pay enough to get that.
> > >
> > > I do know that there are a number of companies that would be happy to
> > > pay to have a proper 'partner program' - that doesn't meant Koozali SME
> > > becomes a commercial product. But the money generated could be invested
> > > back in to the distro for its benefit.
> > >
> > > Some form of paid for advertising for interested parties on the sites
> > > might be worth looking at too - this would benefit users who often do
> > > not know where to to turn to if they need professional assistance.
> > >
> > > None of this would prevent Koozali SME from remaining open source. In
> > > actual fact it would HELP keep it open source by helping to fund the
> > > infrastructure required to build it.
> > >
> > > I have no real idea of how best to do this, but something needs doing.
> > >
> > > So any solutions gratefully received :-)
> > >
> > > B. Rgds
> > > John
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Server Development Discussion
> > > To unsubscribe, e-maildevinfo-***@lists.contribs.org <mailto:devinfo-***@lists.contribs.org>
> > > Searchable archive athttp://lists.contribs.org/mailman/public/devinfo/
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Server Development Discussion
> > To unsubscribe, e-maildevinfo-***@lists.contribs.org <mailto:devinfo-***@lists.contribs.org>
> > Searchable archive athttp://lists.contribs.org/mailman/public/devinfo/
> >
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Server Development Discussion
> To unsubscribe, e-mail devinfo-***@lists.contribs.org
> Searchable archive at http://lists.contribs.org/mailman/public/devinfo/
Matthias Schuh
2015-01-03 14:48:43 UTC
Permalink
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Am 03.01.2015 um 15:29 schrieb Hsing-Foo Wang:
> Next to the above 'more edgy repo' we could consider: 1. Split SME
> updates into 'sme-security-updates' and normal updates 2. Normal
> update repo's receive updates as they are released 3. The
> 'sme-security-updates' are released as a normal update once per
> quarter year to smetest repo and from there follow the normal
> release procedure. 4. Subscription repo 'security' receive security
> updates immediately. 5. The 'sme-Security-updates' do NOT go
> through the smetest repo.

I beg your pardon, but I'd consider prompt security updates a key
feature of any server distro. These should be distributed ASAP after a
fix has been found and tested, rather than being held back, even for
(non-paying) home users?
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Server Development Discussion
To unsubscribe, e-mail devinfo-***@lists.contribs.org
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Huib de Visser
2015-01-03 15:34:30 UTC
Permalink
I don't think we should possibly compromise security of SME installations, be it for a certain amount of time, to raise funds. I wouldn't want SME to be thought of as insecure unless paid for.

... that being said, my suggestion of a more 'edgy' unpaid repo might also be a slippery slope (unstable unless paid for).


-----Original message-----
From: Hsing-Foo Wang <***@gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday 3rd January 2015 15:35
To: ***@lists.contribs.org
Subject: Re: [devinfo] Foundation - the future of SME....




On 01/03/2015 02:28 PM, Huib de Visser wrote:

Since the code is GPL the first thing that comes to mind when we're talking "Commercial" is: Support.... i don't see how that could be delivered. Besides that i just don't like the idea of a commercial distro/spin in light of SME's history (post Mitel), my feeling is that it will come at the cost of losing (a substantial) part of the community.

Just an other thought for raising funds (in addition to most of HF's suggestions), maybe something with the repo's:
  * Make the freely accessible updates repo a bit more 'edgy' and a fairly paid business updates repo more 'stable'.

Subscription repo's is another great idea. I know Proxmox uses them.

Next to the above 'more edgy repo' we could consider:
1. Split SME updates into 'sme-security-updates' and normal updates
2. Normal update repo's receive updates as they are released
3. The 'sme-security-updates' are released as a normal update once per quarter year to smetest repo and from there follow the normal release procedure.
4. Subscription repo 'security' receive security updates immediately.
5. The 'sme-Security-updates' do NOT go through the smetest repo.

Thoughts?

Bugzilla could be used to determine which update goes where by means of P flags?


  * Make a contribs installer in the server-manager and a fairly paid repo to go with it for those who prefer convenience over spending time to get familiar with the commandline.

And maybe something to increase the number/quality of contribs (cannot oversee if this would be a good for the long term):
  * Possibility of sponsoring/bounty NFR's (not initial contrib or bugs), and some rating possibilities (contrib/coder/work) to keep things in check. More/better contribs i think would lead to more users, also good for the Foundation.


Just my 2c.



-----Original message-----


> From:Hsing-Foo Wang <***@gmail.com>
> Sent: Saturday 3rd January 2015 8:30
> To: ***@lists.contribs.org
> Subject: Re: [devinfo] Foundation - the future of SME....
>
>
> On 01/03/2015 04:51 AM, John Crisp wrote:
> > All good points Mats, and than you for your involvement. A few more like
> > you would make a big difference !
> Fully agree, thanks Mats.
> > Just a quickish precis....
> >
> > On 03/01/15 02:29, Matthias Schuh wrote:
> >> Hi All,
> >>
> >> When SME-Server is being transformed into a "commercial" product
> >> (foundation based or not), there is a chance that the project will
> >> significantly lose momentum both development- and community-wise.
>
> Let's separate 2 things here. We need to separate the "commercial
> feeling" into two parts:
>
> 1. Commercial as in sales, product against a (fair) price
> 2. Marketing as in advertise product and it's advantages to a broader
> audience
>
> So for the sake of channeling idea's and possibilities, let's be
> specific on 1 or 2 above. Where we tend to focus on 1 only in these
> "commercial" discussions :-)
>
> I feel we that on the (mid)short term we should focus on #2, marketing
> and design a partner program, and continue to think about #1 in the
> background.
>
> This community has assets that are possibly valuable to partners such as
> vendors, distributors, head hunters, sourcing companies, (support)
> service companies etc. Next to the consensus and proof we all have (and
> indicated so many times, "It simply works". There you have a slogan to
> start with, where partners can hook up on with their portfolio. ;-)
>
> John C. and I have shared some very rough and high level idea's on #2,
> and we sure love to hear more (detailed) idea's from this community on
> it. Good for us, good for the partner, good for SME Users, good for new
> SME Users.
>
> So here are some leads to chew on and spit out some idea's :-)
>
> * "Works with Koozali SME Server"
> * Please visit our partner page at http://koozali.org/partners/xxx
> * Proudly sponsored by
> * "Are you looking for new challenge"
> * Contrib sponsored by...
> * Welcome to the yearly Koozali Partner event. "Paris 2016", "Berlin
> 2017", "London 2018", "Milano 2019" ;-)
> * "Koozali SME Server is accredited by..."
>
> So for partners it could start with something like "You wanna play?
> you've got to pay" :-)
>
> Interested in your thoughts and idea's.
>
> Thanks,
> -HF
>
>
>
>
>
> > I don't think anyone here ever felt that SME should be a 'commercial
> > product'.
> >
> > More commercially orientated or aware, but not necessarily a commercial
> > product.
> >
> >
> >> Forcing people to pay for the product, documentation or access to
> >> community support IMHO is a step in the wrong direction, also with
> >> regards to the highly competitive market situation it would place
> >> SME-Server in. Efforts should instead be focussed on increasing
> >> donations to keep up the project and community infrastructure.
> >>
> > .......
> >
> >
> > The unavoidable question that I have long posed is that we have expenses
> > that need to be paid for on a regular basis, and how do we pay for that.
> >
> > For too long no one has ever considered what it actually costs to build
> > Koozali SME.
> >
> > Quite simply, donations barely cover the costs. They are sporadic and
> > insufficient to rely on. They certainly don't generate anywhere near
> > enough to allow us to invest in the distribution.
> >
> > Costs this year were about USD 8,000 (we will publish last years figures
> > shortly). That included a period of time when we were paying for both
> > the old system and the new one.
> >
> > Income was about USD 11,000 BUT there was one large donation that
> > without which we would not have had enough donations to cover costs this
> > year by quite a large margin.
> >
> > Fortunately, since we added the notices to the server manager pages and
> > tried to raise awareness about the cash situation, donations have risen,
> > and over the last year we have built a small cash buffer so it wasn't
> > critical.
> >
> > Nonetheless every month some of us play wait and see to find out if we
> > have enough money to pay the bills. It isn't much fun quite frankly.
> >
> > Especially when you know there are a lot of people out there earning
> > good money from it, and not paying a dime back. If we had USD10 per year
> > from every install we would be laughing.
> >
> > We probably actually receive less than 30 CENTS per server per year.
> >
> > We have upped the ante on donations over the last year. How else can we
> > push for them ? We put notices all over the wiki and server manager (not
> > so popular, but needs must) etc. Where else ? If we do too much then
> > users complain - they weren't happy about the server manager panel.......
> >
> > At the same time we have users saying they would like to see this
> > functionality, more up to date panels, or contribs, or whatever, but
> > very few seem to want to help, or to pay for us to employ some help.
> >
> > So we are stuck between a rock and a hard place. Everyone wants more. No
> > one is prepared to pay enough to get that.
> >
> > I do know that there are a number of companies that would be happy to
> > pay to have a proper 'partner program' - that doesn't meant Koozali SME
> > becomes a commercial product. But the money generated could be invested
> > back in to the distro for its benefit.
> >
> > Some form of paid for advertising for interested parties on the sites
> > might be worth looking at too - this would benefit users who often do
> > not know where to to turn to if they need professional assistance.
> >
> > None of this would prevent Koozali SME from remaining open source. In
> > actual fact it would HELP keep it open source by helping to fund the
> > infrastructure required to build it.
> >
> > I have no real idea of how best to do this, but something needs doing.
> >
> > So any solutions gratefully received :-)
> >
> > B. Rgds
> > John
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Server Development Discussion
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail devinfo-***@lists.contribs.org
> > Searchable archive at http://lists.contribs.org/mailman/public/devinfo/
>
> _______________________________________________
> Server Development Discussion
> To unsubscribe, e-mail devinfo-***@lists.contribs.org
> Searchable archive at http://lists.contribs.org/mailman/public/devinfo/
>
>





_______________________________________________
Server Development Discussion
To unsubscribe, e-mail devinfo-***@lists.contribs.org
Searchable archive at http://lists.contribs.org/mailman/public/devinfo/




_______________________________________________

Server Development Discussion

To unsubscribe, e-mail devinfo-***@lists.contribs.org

Searchable archive at http://lists.contribs.org/mailman/public/devinfo/
Hsing-Foo Wang
2015-01-03 15:56:16 UTC
Permalink
Ok Huib and Mats. Bad idea :-) At least we now know what NOT to do then.
Next!


On 01/03/2015 04:34 PM, Huib de Visser wrote:
> RE: [devinfo] Foundation - the future of SME.... I don't think we
> should possibly compromise security of SME installations, be it for a
> certain amount of time, to raise funds. I wouldn't want SME to be
> thought of as insecure unless paid for.
>
> ... that being said, my suggestion of a more 'edgy' unpaid repo might
> also be a slippery slope (unstable unless paid for).
>
>
> -----Original message-----
> *From:* Hsing-Foo Wang <***@gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Saturday 3rd January 2015 15:35
> *To:* ***@lists.contribs.org
> *Subject:* Re: [devinfo] Foundation - the future of SME....
>
>
> On 01/03/2015 02:28 PM, Huib de Visser wrote:
>> Since the code is GPL the first thing that comes to mind when
>> we're talking "Commercial" is: Support.... i don't see how that
>> could be delivered. Besides that i just don't like the idea of a
>> commercial distro/spin in light of SME's history (post Mitel), my
>> feeling is that it will come at the cost of losing (a
>> substantial) part of the community.
>>
>> Just an other thought for raising funds (in addition to most of
>> HF's suggestions), maybe something with the repo's:
>> * Make the freely accessible updates repo a bit more 'edgy' and
>> a fairly paid business updates repo more 'stable'.
>
> Subscription repo's is another great idea. I know Proxmox uses them.
>
> Next to the above 'more edgy repo' we could consider:
> 1. Split SME updates into 'sme-security-updates' and normal updates
> 2. Normal update repo's receive updates as they are released
> 3. The 'sme-security-updates' are released as a normal update once
> per quarter year to smetest repo and from there follow the normal
> release procedure.
> 4. Subscription repo 'security' receive security updates immediately.
> 5. The 'sme-Security-updates' do NOT go through the smetest repo.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Bugzilla could be used to determine which update goes where by
> means of P flags?
>
>
>> * Make a contribs installer in the server-manager and a fairly
>> paid repo to go with it for those who prefer convenience over
>> spending time to get familiar with the commandline.
>>
>> And maybe something to increase the number/quality of contribs
>> (cannot oversee if this would be a good for the long term):
>> * Possibility of sponsoring/bounty NFR's (not initial contrib
>> or bugs), and some rating possibilities (contrib/coder/work) to
>> keep things in check. More/better contribs i think would lead to
>> more users, also good for the Foundation.
>>
>>
>> Just my 2c.
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original message-----
>> > From:Hsing-Foo Wang <***@gmail.com <mailto:***@gmail.com>>
>> > Sent: Saturday 3rd January 2015 8:30
>> > To:***@lists.contribs.org <mailto:***@lists.contribs.org>
>> > Subject: Re: [devinfo] Foundation - the future of SME....
>> >
>> >
>> > On 01/03/2015 04:51 AM, John Crisp wrote:
>> > > All good points Mats, and than you for your involvement. A few more like
>> > > you would make a big difference !
>> > Fully agree, thanks Mats.
>> > > Just a quickish precis....
>> > >
>> > > On 03/01/15 02:29, Matthias Schuh wrote:
>> > >> Hi All,
>> > >>
>> > >> When SME-Server is being transformed into a "commercial" product
>> > >> (foundation based or not), there is a chance that the project will
>> > >> significantly lose momentum both development- and community-wise.
>> >
>> > Let's separate 2 things here. We need to separate the "commercial
>> > feeling" into two parts:
>> >
>> > 1. Commercial as in sales, product against a (fair) price
>> > 2. Marketing as in advertise product and it's advantages to a broader
>> > audience
>> >
>> > So for the sake of channeling idea's and possibilities, let's be
>> > specific on 1 or 2 above. Where we tend to focus on 1 only in these
>> > "commercial" discussions :-)
>> >
>> > I feel we that on the (mid)short term we should focus on #2, marketing
>> > and design a partner program, and continue to think about #1 in the
>> > background.
>> >
>> > This community has assets that are possibly valuable to partners such as
>> > vendors, distributors, head hunters, sourcing companies, (support)
>> > service companies etc. Next to the consensus and proof we all have (and
>> > indicated so many times, "It simply works". There you have a slogan to
>> > start with, where partners can hook up on with their portfolio. ;-)
>> >
>> > John C. and I have shared some very rough and high level idea's on #2,
>> > and we sure love to hear more (detailed) idea's from this community on
>> > it. Good for us, good for the partner, good for SME Users, good for new
>> > SME Users.
>> >
>> > So here are some leads to chew on and spit out some idea's :-)
>> >
>> > * "Works with Koozali SME Server"
>> > * Please visit our partner page athttp://koozali.org/partners/xxx
>> > * Proudly sponsored by
>> > * "Are you looking for new challenge"
>> > * Contrib sponsored by...
>> > * Welcome to the yearly Koozali Partner event. "Paris 2016", "Berlin
>> > 2017", "London 2018", "Milano 2019" ;-)
>> > * "Koozali SME Server is accredited by..."
>> >
>> > So for partners it could start with something like "You wanna play?
>> > you've got to pay" :-)
>> >
>> > Interested in your thoughts and idea's.
>> >
>> > Thanks,
>> > -HF
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > > I don't think anyone here ever felt that SME should be a 'commercial
>> > > product'.
>> > >
>> > > More commercially orientated or aware, but not necessarily a commercial
>> > > product.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >> Forcing people to pay for the product, documentation or access to
>> > >> community support IMHO is a step in the wrong direction, also with
>> > >> regards to the highly competitive market situation it would place
>> > >> SME-Server in. Efforts should instead be focussed on increasing
>> > >> donations to keep up the project and community infrastructure.
>> > >>
>> > > .......
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > The unavoidable question that I have long posed is that we have expenses
>> > > that need to be paid for on a regular basis, and how do we pay for that.
>> > >
>> > > For too long no one has ever considered what it actually costs to build
>> > > Koozali SME.
>> > >
>> > > Quite simply, donations barely cover the costs. They are sporadic and
>> > > insufficient to rely on. They certainly don't generate anywhere near
>> > > enough to allow us to invest in the distribution.
>> > >
>> > > Costs this year were about USD 8,000 (we will publish last years figures
>> > > shortly). That included a period of time when we were paying for both
>> > > the old system and the new one.
>> > >
>> > > Income was about USD 11,000 BUT there was one large donation that
>> > > without which we would not have had enough donations to cover costs this
>> > > year by quite a large margin.
>> > >
>> > > Fortunately, since we added the notices to the server manager pages and
>> > > tried to raise awareness about the cash situation, donations have risen,
>> > > and over the last year we have built a small cash buffer so it wasn't
>> > > critical.
>> > >
>> > > Nonetheless every month some of us play wait and see to find out if we
>> > > have enough money to pay the bills. It isn't much fun quite frankly.
>> > >
>> > > Especially when you know there are a lot of people out there earning
>> > > good money from it, and not paying a dime back. If we had USD10 per year
>> > > from every install we would be laughing.
>> > >
>> > > We probably actually receive less than 30 CENTS per server per year.
>> > >
>> > > We have upped the ante on donations over the last year. How else can we
>> > > push for them ? We put notices all over the wiki and server manager (not
>> > > so popular, but needs must) etc. Where else ? If we do too much then
>> > > users complain - they weren't happy about the server manager panel.......
>> > >
>> > > At the same time we have users saying they would like to see this
>> > > functionality, more up to date panels, or contribs, or whatever, but
>> > > very few seem to want to help, or to pay for us to employ some help.
>> > >
>> > > So we are stuck between a rock and a hard place. Everyone wants more. No
>> > > one is prepared to pay enough to get that.
>> > >
>> > > I do know that there are a number of companies that would be happy to
>> > > pay to have a proper 'partner program' - that doesn't meant Koozali SME
>> > > becomes a commercial product. But the money generated could be invested
>> > > back in to the distro for its benefit.
>> > >
>> > > Some form of paid for advertising for interested parties on the sites
>> > > might be worth looking at too - this would benefit users who often do
>> > > not know where to to turn to if they need professional assistance.
>> > >
>> > > None of this would prevent Koozali SME from remaining open source. In
>> > > actual fact it would HELP keep it open source by helping to fund the
>> > > infrastructure required to build it.
>> > >
>> > > I have no real idea of how best to do this, but something needs doing.
>> > >
>> > > So any solutions gratefully received :-)
>> > >
>> > > B. Rgds
>> > > John
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > Server Development Discussion
>> > > To unsubscribe, e-maildevinfo-***@lists.contribs.org <mailto:devinfo-***@lists.contribs.org>
>> > > Searchable archive athttp://lists.contribs.org/mailman/public/devinfo/
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Server Development Discussion
>> > To unsubscribe, e-maildevinfo-***@lists.contribs.org <mailto:devinfo-***@lists.contribs.org>
>> > Searchable archive athttp://lists.contribs.org/mailman/public/devinfo/
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Server Development Discussion
>> To unsubscribe, e-maildevinfo-***@lists.contribs.org
>> Searchable archive athttp://lists.contribs.org/mailman/public/devinfo/
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Server Development Discussion
>
> To unsubscribe, e-mail devinfo-***@lists.contribs.org
>
> Searchable archive at http://lists.contribs.org/mailman/public/devinfo/
>
John Crisp
2015-01-03 16:03:08 UTC
Permalink
Gentlemen,

I just wanted to say how great it is to see so many people contributing
to this discussion. It is a good sign.

Please keep your comments, thoughts, and ideas coming and please
encourage others to join in.

2015 is really a new start for us, and it is in the hands of all of us
to decide the future of Koozali SME.

I will try to sift through ideas as we go and put them into some form of
document so we can have a pool of ideas to work from.

I will say once again for the record that I do not want to see a
'commercial' Koozali SME. Just a more commercially aware and financially
stable Koozali SME.

Unfortunately I am a businessman first and (bad) part time hacker
second. I sit and look at the accounts every month, and with my
pragmatic head on I have to ask how we can make Koozali SME financially
secure - without that there is no future.

I can dream of beautiful code, security, stability, and open source
goodness and all that stuff, but I always have to come back to the first
question - how do we pay for the infrastructure that we require to
actually build the system :-)

It is not just a case of a building a secure financial base for now, but
for the future. No, money doesn't buy happiness, but it is a great
enabler and can help us to drive the distribution forward.

As a matter of interest we have been careful with the money that has
been donated and have built up a bit of a financial buffer, so we do
have about USD 6,000 in the bank (we barely had a cent to our name two
years ago and were literally living hand to mouth, and on the back of
Shads generosity - he effectively for the distro out of his own pocket
for some while.)

My original plan was to ensure that we could operate for a minimum of 12
months without any further donations, and we can at least do that now.

However, we do have a number of things that we need to pay for e.g.
getting a full design guide for 'Koozali' completed, possible
alternative backup provision, and a number of other items that will
easily eat away at that amount in no time. That would leave us with no
buffer as donations still barely beat costs.

We certainly don't have anywhere near enough income to look at things
such as employing a coder to assist with new work etc.

Anyway, please keep talking. Oh, and help fix a few bugs so we can turn
out some new ISOs :-)

B. Rgds
John
_______________________________________________
Server Development Discussion
To unsubscribe, e-mail devinfo-***@lists.contribs.org
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Chris Bostock
2015-01-03 17:26:50 UTC
Permalink
As a simple user I am not sure if you know where to position the product.

I suggest the ideal end user is a small business / voluntary group who want
a server for their Windows machines. They do not know what Hoard or Samba
is. They just want to run a simple machine that gives them networking.

I have been running SME since version 6 and have helped many people set up
and use it. I have no idea what Hoard5 or Samba3 will do for me. I do know
that two users have moved away from SME 8.x since it did not support the
latest PHP or MySql and they were not willing to wait for 8 months for
version 9. 2 lost users (3 servers) you will never see again.

It is obvious that most of you are dedicated people who want to deliver the
perfect product. You also need to cover costs but seems to be willing to
offer time freely.

I run my small business with SME and should make a donation, but why ? I can
Linux free, my requirements are simple and I could easily setup a basic
server without assistance. However the voluntary organisations I support
need some assistance, but they don't have the money spare.

Voluntary donations give you some income. Paid add-ons might also help. I
would happily pay for modules that improve my business. The basic system
is so good that even the thought of installing contribs can be daunting.
Editing a template is a no-no for the users I am talking about, but buying
an add on would temp them.

I don't have the full solution yet but I do think you need to agree on your
market and work from there.

Chris Bostock

ps. Do you know how many users are out there. If not shouldn't you be
building an automatic reporting module into SME to count them.






-----Original Message-----
From: devinfo-***@lists.contribs.org
[mailto:devinfo-***@lists.contribs.org] On Behalf Of John Crisp
Sent: 03 January 2015 16:03
To: ***@lists.contribs.org
Subject: Re: [devinfo] Fwd: Re: [discussion] Foundation - the future of
SME....

Gentlemen,

I just wanted to say how great it is to see so many people contributing to
this discussion. It is a good sign.

Please keep your comments, thoughts, and ideas coming and please encourage
others to join in.

2015 is really a new start for us, and it is in the hands of all of us to
decide the future of Koozali SME.

I will try to sift through ideas as we go and put them into some form of
document so we can have a pool of ideas to work from.

I will say once again for the record that I do not want to see a
'commercial' Koozali SME. Just a more commercially aware and financially
stable Koozali SME.

Unfortunately I am a businessman first and (bad) part time hacker second. I
sit and look at the accounts every month, and with my pragmatic head on I
have to ask how we can make Koozali SME financially secure - without that
there is no future.

I can dream of beautiful code, security, stability, and open source goodness
and all that stuff, but I always have to come back to the first question -
how do we pay for the infrastructure that we require to actually build the
system :-)

It is not just a case of a building a secure financial base for now, but for
the future. No, money doesn't buy happiness, but it is a great enabler and
can help us to drive the distribution forward.

As a matter of interest we have been careful with the money that has been
donated and have built up a bit of a financial buffer, so we do have about
USD 6,000 in the bank (we barely had a cent to our name two years ago and
were literally living hand to mouth, and on the back of Shads generosity -
he effectively for the distro out of his own pocket for some while.)

My original plan was to ensure that we could operate for a minimum of 12
months without any further donations, and we can at least do that now.

However, we do have a number of things that we need to pay for e.g.
getting a full design guide for 'Koozali' completed, possible alternative
backup provision, and a number of other items that will easily eat away at
that amount in no time. That would leave us with no buffer as donations
still barely beat costs.

We certainly don't have anywhere near enough income to look at things such
as employing a coder to assist with new work etc.

Anyway, please keep talking. Oh, and help fix a few bugs so we can turn out
some new ISOs :-)

B. Rgds
John
_______________________________________________
Server Development Discussion
To unsubscribe, e-mail devinfo-***@lists.contribs.org
Searchable archive at http://lists.contribs.org/mailman/public/devinfo/

_______________________________________________
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r***@vielnascher.net
2015-01-03 18:14:59 UTC
Permalink
I very much agree with the main points in your email.

I as well lost some clients because PHP an mySQL are always far behind ..
On biug client with more than 4 Machines is running moodle on them and the
nessecary updates for mySQL and PHP are their only problem with SME ..

For my segment of professional but small endusers i do not run many networks
but i maintain more then 15 Machines as Web- and Mailservers. One big issue
for my clients beside the late PHP and mySQL Versions is the problem of
granting FTP or at least sFTP Access for Clients that want to access there
websites with FTP or sFTP to work and upload their websites made by Hand, or
Frontpage & Co.

So this could be an Exampple of "paid" Extramodule i whould buy for some of
the machines so i can handle new sFTP Users as easy as i can now for
eMailadresses (users & pseudonyms) or Domains or Websites (ibays).

With the existing module "Userpanel" i can handle most of the
"Self-Servicing" Requests of my Clients (like Statistik Acess, Change
Password and Vacation Messages)

So leaving SME by general open is ok, but i whould love to pay some annual
fee's for each usefull Plugin per Server, like some from Stephane's
Brilliant Tools!

And i think that nearly every user will agree on some kind of Counting Tool
on SME-Server-Side to collect some basic data on installed & running
Servers!?

Just my humble opinion :-)

Best and Thanks to all of you People working on that wonderful Tool!
Rudi






-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
From: Chris Bostock
Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2015 6:26 PM
To: ***@lists.contribs.org
Subject: Re: [devinfo] Fwd: Re: [discussion] Foundation - the futureof
SME....

As a simple user I am not sure if you know where to position the product.

I suggest the ideal end user is a small business / voluntary group who want
a server for their Windows machines. They do not know what Hoard or Samba
is. They just want to run a simple machine that gives them networking.

I have been running SME since version 6 and have helped many people set up
and use it. I have no idea what Hoard5 or Samba3 will do for me. I do know
that two users have moved away from SME 8.x since it did not support the
latest PHP or MySql and they were not willing to wait for 8 months for
version 9. 2 lost users (3 servers) you will never see again.

It is obvious that most of you are dedicated people who want to deliver the
perfect product. You also need to cover costs but seems to be willing to
offer time freely.

I run my small business with SME and should make a donation, but why ? I can
Linux free, my requirements are simple and I could easily setup a basic
server without assistance. However the voluntary organisations I support
need some assistance, but they don't have the money spare.

Voluntary donations give you some income. Paid add-ons might also help. I
would happily pay for modules that improve my business. The basic system
is so good that even the thought of installing contribs can be daunting.
Editing a template is a no-no for the users I am talking about, but buying
an add on would temp them.

I don't have the full solution yet but I do think you need to agree on your
market and work from there.

Chris Bostock

ps. Do you know how many users are out there. If not shouldn't you be
building an automatic reporting module into SME to count them.






-----Original Message-----
From: devinfo-***@lists.contribs.org
[mailto:devinfo-***@lists.contribs.org] On Behalf Of John Crisp
Sent: 03 January 2015 16:03
To: ***@lists.contribs.org
Subject: Re: [devinfo] Fwd: Re: [discussion] Foundation - the future of
SME....

Gentlemen,

I just wanted to say how great it is to see so many people contributing to
this discussion. It is a good sign.

Please keep your comments, thoughts, and ideas coming and please encourage
others to join in.

2015 is really a new start for us, and it is in the hands of all of us to
decide the future of Koozali SME.

I will try to sift through ideas as we go and put them into some form of
document so we can have a pool of ideas to work from.

I will say once again for the record that I do not want to see a
'commercial' Koozali SME. Just a more commercially aware and financially
stable Koozali SME.

Unfortunately I am a businessman first and (bad) part time hacker second. I
sit and look at the accounts every month, and with my pragmatic head on I
have to ask how we can make Koozali SME financially secure - without that
there is no future.

I can dream of beautiful code, security, stability, and open source goodness
and all that stuff, but I always have to come back to the first question -
how do we pay for the infrastructure that we require to actually build the
system :-)

It is not just a case of a building a secure financial base for now, but for
the future. No, money doesn't buy happiness, but it is a great enabler and
can help us to drive the distribution forward.

As a matter of interest we have been careful with the money that has been
donated and have built up a bit of a financial buffer, so we do have about
USD 6,000 in the bank (we barely had a cent to our name two years ago and
were literally living hand to mouth, and on the back of Shads generosity -
he effectively for the distro out of his own pocket for some while.)

My original plan was to ensure that we could operate for a minimum of 12
months without any further donations, and we can at least do that now.

However, we do have a number of things that we need to pay for e.g.
getting a full design guide for 'Koozali' completed, possible alternative
backup provision, and a number of other items that will easily eat away at
that amount in no time. That would leave us with no buffer as donations
still barely beat costs.

We certainly don't have anywhere near enough income to look at things such
as employing a coder to assist with new work etc.

Anyway, please keep talking. Oh, and help fix a few bugs so we can turn out
some new ISOs :-)

B. Rgds
John
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John Crisp
2015-01-03 18:36:32 UTC
Permalink
On 03/01/15 18:26, Chris Bostock wrote:
> As a simple user I am not sure if you know where to position the product.
>
> I suggest the ideal end user is a small business / voluntary group who want
> a server for their Windows machines. They do not know what Hoard or Samba
> is. They just want to run a simple machine that gives them networking.
>

They don't have to know what these are, but they say they want to be
able to file share (Samba) and use webmail (Horde) and they want the
newer trendier versions (see you comments re PHP & MySQL below)

IMHO we should be more business orientated and work with those who have
the time and money to help us, and in turn who we can help, and the
voluntary organisations who want it all for free can ride on the back of
that if they so choose.

I think Koozali SME HAS always been fairly business orientated, but we
have fallen behind the times, and need to get more up to speed. We also
need to orient ourselves with what our 'customers' want - something I
think we have often ignored. Filippo forked because he had customers
asking for features we didn't provide. What does he do ? Stand there and
say 'no' on a matter of principal, or go where the money is that pays to
keep a roof over his head ?

> I have been running SME since version 6 and have helped many people set up
> and use it. I have no idea what Hoard5 or Samba3 will do for me. I do know
> that two users have moved away from SME 8.x since it did not support the
> latest PHP or MySql and they were not willing to wait for 8 months for
> version 9. 2 lost users (3 servers) you will never see again.
>

Sad, but we realise that and want to change it. As a matter of interest
what did they move to ?


> I run my small business with SME and should make a donation, but why ? I can
> Linux free, my requirements are simple and I could easily setup a basic
> server without assistance. However the voluntary organisations I support
> need some assistance, but they don't have the money spare.
>

Yes, you could use something else. But the logical extension of your
argument would be no more open source software because without funds no
one would be able to build anything......

Free to download and use, not free to build.... Someone somewhere has to
pay something to build this stuff. It doesn't happen for free.

Unfortunately due to open source being called 'free software' people
frequently seem to have gotten the wrong meaning of free.

I also find it funny when people talk about voluntary organisations
using Koozali, but having no money to pay a donation.

We are a voluntary organisation too.... but like ANY organisation, no
matter how small, they all have costs and expenses. None of them operate
on a budget of zero.

It seems that many people think that 'their' voluntary oprganisations
should get it for free and someone else should pay for the hardware we
need to build the system.

It doesn't really make any sense to me. Should we approach our server
provider and tell them we are a voluntary organisation and we want it
for free ? What do you think they would say ?

A voluntary organisation paying say USD 10 per year would be just
another (extremely small) expense and I doubt most would object if it
was explained properly.

Sorry, I might sound a bit harsh but don't mean to be - just trying to
be realistic.


>
> ps. Do you know how many users are out there. If not shouldn't you be
> building an automatic reporting module into SME to count them.
>

Unfortunately we don't, or at least not accurately. A system can report
a ping on install but beyond that nothing. There is a map that is
generated on the wiki (can't remember the link) but it is all approximate.

We are looking at trying to be more accurate with this. Controlling
downloads some how might be one way.

We at other ways to do it but there are obvious privacy/anonymity
concerns. However, a possibility that has been discussed is adding a
screen on install asking if people mind giving us some anonymous
stats/sign up to a newsletter/subscribe to a list etc etc

Another job on the list :-)

B. Rgds
John
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r***@vielnascher.net
2015-01-03 19:03:49 UTC
Permalink
< A voluntary organisation paying say USD 10 per year would be just
< another (extremely small) expense and I doubt most would object if it
< was explained properly.

< Sorry, I might sound a bit harsh but don't mean to be - just trying to
< be realistic.

Hi John,
you are right on the very tiny spot as always :-)

i think the problem in real live is, that all have expenses but they get
bills for each xpense ..

but making a donation, for example here in austria is nothing you can take
off your taxes so i need to pay the "Donation" out of my personal money,
that is too little, always :-)

But if i whould pay let's say € 20,- per Server per Year "For some Modules i
use" and i get a bill for this, i can but the bill into my system and my
System pay's for it ..

Best
Rudi


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Terry Fage
2015-01-03 19:15:28 UTC
Permalink
On 4/01/2015 5:36 AM, John Crisp wrote:
> On 03/01/15 18:26, Chris Bostock wrote:
>> As a simple user I am not sure if you know where to position the product.
>>
>> I suggest the ideal end user is a small business / voluntary group who want
>> a server for their Windows machines. They do not know what Hoard or Samba
>> is. They just want to run a simple machine that gives them networking.

A fine start to a new year, bush fires, stinking hot, a new son in law
and no time to give the brewers product a real good nudge - sigh

Now my small contribution by way of generating funds, who do I contact
to get official invoicing that I can present to the NFPs I work with for
a nominal annual sum, come contribution, of no more than say $25 - $50
Oz, allow me to set the fee based on the help provided :-)

I think I have raised this before but being a lazy prick didn't put the
answer away. I do live in a place that provides these sort of payments
as long as invoiced properly to be full tax deductible.

Much to do for the new ISO releases.
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John Crisp
2015-01-03 19:47:12 UTC
Permalink
On 03/01/15 20:15, Terry Fage wrote:

>
> Now my small contribution by way of generating funds, who do I contact
> to get official invoicing that I can present to the NFPs I work with for

The treasurer or me - we can do an invoice for anyone who wants one and
have been able to for a while - I have said it before :-)

So just for the record.

If you need an invoice for a donation just let us know and we'll get you
one asap.

B. Rgds
John
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Chris Bostock
2015-01-03 20:57:32 UTC
Permalink
John,

You defence is fair but you missed out an important part of my email.

"Voluntary donations give you some income. Paid add-ons might also help.
I would happily pay for modules that improve my business. The basic system
is so good that even the thought of installing contribs can be daunting.
Editing a template is a no-no for the users I am talking about, but buying
an add on would temp them."

I have no problems with generating an income, what I am suggesting is that
you keep the basic unit free but then charge for some add-ons

Rudi has mentioned sFTP, that is an excellent example of the add-on that
people might be willing to pay for. It may well be that some of the Contrib
authors would work with you to allow their contribution to create some
income.

Another example might be the mail retrieval contrib. Is has made life so
much easier for my organisation, also or white/black list etc etc

The world map is great, I only wish I could find the instructions to add to
it

I do have a comment about the understandable insistence of "raise a bug".
In many instances users have a problem, it is not a bug, but they are doing
something wrong and not sure about it. using the "raise a bug" response
might not be the best way of dealing with those cases. I have a current
problem with dar and 9.0, it is in the bug list but I have no idea if it is
my fault or a real bug. All I know is I cannot make it work

Chris Bostock







-----Original Message-----
From: devinfo-***@lists.contribs.org
[mailto:devinfo-***@lists.contribs.org] On Behalf Of John Crisp
Sent: 03 January 2015 18:37
To: ***@lists.contribs.org
Subject: Re: [devinfo] Fwd: Re: [discussion] Foundation - the future of
SME....

On 03/01/15 18:26, Chris Bostock wrote:
> As a simple user I am not sure if you know where to position the product.
>
> I suggest the ideal end user is a small business / voluntary group who
> want a server for their Windows machines. They do not know what Hoard
> or Samba is. They just want to run a simple machine that gives them
networking.
>

They don't have to know what these are, but they say they want to be able to
file share (Samba) and use webmail (Horde) and they want the newer trendier
versions (see you comments re PHP & MySQL below)

IMHO we should be more business orientated and work with those who have the
time and money to help us, and in turn who we can help, and the voluntary
organisations who want it all for free can ride on the back of that if they
so choose.

I think Koozali SME HAS always been fairly business orientated, but we have
fallen behind the times, and need to get more up to speed. We also need to
orient ourselves with what our 'customers' want - something I think we have
often ignored. Filippo forked because he had customers asking for features
we didn't provide. What does he do ? Stand there and say 'no' on a matter of
principal, or go where the money is that pays to keep a roof over his head ?

> I have been running SME since version 6 and have helped many people
> set up and use it. I have no idea what Hoard5 or Samba3 will do for
> me. I do know that two users have moved away from SME 8.x since it
> did not support the latest PHP or MySql and they were not willing to
> wait for 8 months for version 9. 2 lost users (3 servers) you will never
see again.
>

Sad, but we realise that and want to change it. As a matter of interest what
did they move to ?


> I run my small business with SME and should make a donation, but why ?
> I can Linux free, my requirements are simple and I could easily setup
> a basic server without assistance. However the voluntary
> organisations I support need some assistance, but they don't have the
money spare.
>

Yes, you could use something else. But the logical extension of your
argument would be no more open source software because without funds no one
would be able to build anything......

Free to download and use, not free to build.... Someone somewhere has to pay
something to build this stuff. It doesn't happen for free.

Unfortunately due to open source being called 'free software' people
frequently seem to have gotten the wrong meaning of free.

I also find it funny when people talk about voluntary organisations using
Koozali, but having no money to pay a donation.

We are a voluntary organisation too.... but like ANY organisation, no matter
how small, they all have costs and expenses. None of them operate on a
budget of zero.

It seems that many people think that 'their' voluntary oprganisations should
get it for free and someone else should pay for the hardware we need to
build the system.

It doesn't really make any sense to me. Should we approach our server
provider and tell them we are a voluntary organisation and we want it for
free ? What do you think they would say ?

A voluntary organisation paying say USD 10 per year would be just another
(extremely small) expense and I doubt most would object if it was explained
properly.

Sorry, I might sound a bit harsh but don't mean to be - just trying to be
realistic.


>
> ps. Do you know how many users are out there. If not shouldn't you be
> building an automatic reporting module into SME to count them.
>

Unfortunately we don't, or at least not accurately. A system can report a
ping on install but beyond that nothing. There is a map that is generated on
the wiki (can't remember the link) but it is all approximate.

We are looking at trying to be more accurate with this. Controlling
downloads some how might be one way.

We at other ways to do it but there are obvious privacy/anonymity concerns.
However, a possibility that has been discussed is adding a screen on install
asking if people mind giving us some anonymous stats/sign up to a
newsletter/subscribe to a list etc etc

Another job on the list :-)

B. Rgds
John
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John Crisp
2015-01-04 02:15:35 UTC
Permalink
On 03/01/15 21:57, Chris Bostock wrote:
> John,
>
> You defence is fair but you missed out an important part of my email.
>
> "Voluntary donations give you some income. Paid add-ons might also help.
> I would happily pay for modules that improve my business. The basic system
> is so good that even the thought of installing contribs can be daunting.
> Editing a template is a no-no for the users I am talking about, but buying
> an add on would temp them."
>
> I have no problems with generating an income, what I am suggesting is that
> you keep the basic unit free but then charge for some add-ons
>

Sorry - I wasn't ignoring you - I got that bit and have no argument
against it :-)


> Rudi has mentioned sFTP, that is an excellent example of the add-on that
> people might be willing to pay for. It may well be that some of the Contrib
> authors would work with you to allow their contribution to create some
> income.
>
> Another example might be the mail retrieval contrib. Is has made life so
> much easier for my organisation, also or white/black list etc etc
>

Maybe we should look at the contribs we maintain and see if there are
ones that people may think are suitable to be charged a nominal amount for.

I am pretty sure that Samba 4 would be a very popular install for a lot
of businesses/integrators and may be something worth looking at.

Remember that we don't need to raise much - an average of USD 10 per
server per year would give us quite a pool of money to work with.

> The world map is great, I only wish I could find the instructions to add to
> it
>

You can't as I believe it gets updated from data on install and that is
controlled centrally. However, I am not to clear the mechanisms so we
need to check and see what goes on. We certainly need much better stats
on where Koozali SME is installed, who by etc.

> I do have a comment about the understandable insistence of "raise a bug".
> In many instances users have a problem, it is not a bug, but they are doing
> something wrong and not sure about it. using the "raise a bug" response
> might not be the best way of dealing with those cases. I have a current
> problem with dar and 9.0, it is in the bug list but I have no idea if it is
> my fault or a real bug. All I know is I cannot make it work
>

Yes, this is an issue for many, and perhaps not always best explained.

Perhaps I can try and clarify it a little.

First and foremost is that the developers do not always read the forums,
so a problem that may be a bug would not get seen/flagged by them
immediately.

However all the devs DO get an email from bugzilla every time a bug is
raised.

As the most experienced people around here, they can usually tell at a
glance if it is something that needs urgent attention or not (triage the
bug), and if it is a problem with the core system. Better they close it
and say ask in the forums than it be posted in the forums and missed.....

Next it also provides a record of problems, and any fixes, that can
easily be referred too later.

Devs can also set a variety of statuses on bugs to indicate their
progress. You can also do things like set one as blocking say a release
of an ISO - i.e you can't build and release an ISO until bug x, y, or z
is fixed.

Bugzilla is also closely tied to the buildsystem. Developers can easily
flip patches into the buildsystem and it makes their already busy lives
much easier.

Ultimately it saves the devs a lot of time...... and their time is
precious and we need to use it as wisely as possible.

If people want further clarification then please ask and I will try to help.

Regarding your issue with Dar please let me know the bug number and I
will have a look and see what is going on.

Is it here (information pulled directly from bugzilla.....) ?

http://wiki.contribs.org/Triage_Queue

B. Rgds
John
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Graeme Robinson
2015-01-04 05:38:54 UTC
Permalink
On 4 January 2015 at 13:15, John Crisp <***@safeandsoundit.co.uk> wrote:
> On 03/01/15 21:57, Chris Bostock wrote:
>> I have no problems with generating an income, what I am suggesting is that
>> you keep the basic unit free but then charge for some add-ons
>>
>
> Sorry - I wasn't ignoring you - I got that bit and have no argument
> against it :-)

That funding model doesn't make sense to me - those who maintain
contribs are welcome to charge for them but they having nothing
directly to do with the main distribution (on which they are
dependent) so it seems an odd approach to use their efforts to fund
the main distro, or to make funding of the main distro dependent on
the maintenance of contribs. Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding your
idea Chris.
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Chris Bostock
2015-01-04 18:15:08 UTC
Permalink
This is where your knowledge is far greater than mine.

I see SME as a Distro that offers a great range of simple to use facilities,
in many cases far more than the average user's needs.

There is in addition a range of add-ons (Contribs) that not every user needs
or even is aware of.

I was under the impression, perhaps wrongly, that some of the Contribs are
supplied by the core team and others by other partners.

What I am suggesting is.

1. A basic free Distro- perhaps even more basic than the current Distro.
2. Encourage people to donate, for the ongoing development of the Distro.
Suggest a pricing structure.
3. Made some add-ons chargeable.
4. Allow others to offer Contribs, charging whatever they want.

SME 10 needs to be worked on now. By reducing the facilities I hope it could
be launched earlier.

Just getting an accurate count of installed servers (version 9.0 and later -
looking forward) would be a major move.

Chris - IMHO :)






-----Original Message-----
From: devinfo-***@lists.contribs.org
[mailto:devinfo-***@lists.contribs.org] On Behalf Of Graeme Robinson
Sent: 04 January 2015 05:39
To: John Crisp
Cc: Contribs DevInfo
Subject: Re: [devinfo] Fwd: Re: [discussion] Foundation - the future of
SME....

On 4 January 2015 at 13:15, John Crisp <***@safeandsoundit.co.uk> wrote:
> On 03/01/15 21:57, Chris Bostock wrote:
>> I have no problems with generating an income, what I am suggesting is
>> that you keep the basic unit free but then charge for some add-ons
>>
>
> Sorry - I wasn't ignoring you - I got that bit and have no argument
> against it :-)

That funding model doesn't make sense to me - those who maintain contribs
are welcome to charge for them but they having nothing directly to do with
the main distribution (on which they are
dependent) so it seems an odd approach to use their efforts to fund the main
distro, or to make funding of the main distro dependent on the maintenance
of contribs. Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding your idea Chris.
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John Crisp
2015-01-04 19:25:02 UTC
Permalink
On 04/01/15 19:15, Chris Bostock wrote:
> This is where your knowledge is far greater than mine.
>
> I see SME as a Distro that offers a great range of simple to use facilities,
> in many cases far more than the average user's needs.
>
> There is in addition a range of add-ons (Contribs) that not every user needs
> or even is aware of.
>
> I was under the impression, perhaps wrongly, that some of the Contribs are
> supplied by the core team and others by other partners.
>


Once up on a time a long time ago there were contribs maintained by
volunteers directly within SME, and others who supplied contribs as paid
for additions - e.g. Stephen Noble.

As SME slowed down, those people left and AFAIAA there are no commercial
contribs suppliers right now.

We have had a lot of code donated to us. However, there were issues
importing to the old build system so many were hosted on private repos
like Stephane and Daniels.

We are in the process of importing these into the main build system, but
it is a major job and will take a while.

We would love to see people writing commercial contribs again, and maybe
some of our own should be chargeable to help raise funds.

> What I am suggesting is.
>
> 1. A basic free Distro- perhaps even more basic than the current Distro.
> 2. Encourage people to donate, for the ongoing development of the Distro.
> Suggest a pricing structure.
> 3. Made some add-ons chargeable.
> 4. Allow others to offer Contribs, charging whatever they want.
>

Yes, these could be possibilities and ideas worth looking at.

> SME 10 needs to be worked on now. By reducing the facilities I hope it could
> be launched earlier.
>

Do you mean Koozali based on RHEL7/CentOS7 ? FWIW we only released v9
based on v6 in the middle of the year. I think it was the fastest
release we have ever done. It was a major undertaking too.

RHEL7/CentOS7 has not long been released. We already know it is going to
involve a HUGE amount of work - much more so than moving from 5 - 6.

We also have a lot of other items that we would like to see in Koozali
SME. e.g. new server manager panel for a start, ability to add contribs
direct from a panel etc.

The general plan was to start on updating some of this stuff on v9 using
it as a test bed, and then move the lot to RHEL/CentOS 7.

We don't have the manpower to do both, and bearing in mind how recent 7
is we felt it would be better to concentrate our limited resources on
making what we have as good as we can. We can still make v9 pretty good.
If we can add in a newer version of Horde, and full Samba 4 it would
make it attractive to quite a few people.

That brings me back to funding. If we have more, we could potentially
employ a professional dev to do some work for us. You would get your
Koozali SME 10 much quicker that way :-)

> Just getting an accurate count of installed servers (version 9.0 and later -
> looking forward) would be a major move.
>

Indeed - it's on my ToDo list....

> Chris - IMHO :)
>

LOL. It's great that you have an opinion and are willing to stick your
head above the parapet - keep it up !

B. Rgds
John
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stephane de Labrusse
2015-01-04 20:24:42 UTC
Permalink
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Le 04/01/2015 20:25, John Crisp a écrit :
> RHEL7/CentOS7 has not long been released. We already know it is
> going to involve a HUGE amount of work - much more so than moving
> from 5 - 6.

leave sysVinit and go to systemd, even if some of us can see good
values is and will be a huge and massive migration.

- --

Cordialement

Stéphane de Labrusse
Membre de l'Aru2L http://www.aru2L.org
Membre de l'ApriL http://www.apriL.org


PORTABLE : 06 29 19 12 99
DOMICILE : 05 65 78 90 72
WEB : http://geekeries.de-labrusse.fr
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David Harper
2015-01-05 01:21:41 UTC
Permalink
> SME 10 needs to be worked on now. By reducing the facilities I hope it could
> be launched earlier.

What do you mean by SME 10? If you mean SME + modern packages, I think that the plan was to use the current SME9/CentOS 6 base as the starting point and to upgrade key packages in the next release of that series; therefore "SME 9.1". Can someone confirm?

Instant update: John says something similar.

----
David Harper
Phone: +61 (0) 421 550 063
Email: ***@hotmail.com
Web: www.david-harper.com
Terry Fage
2015-01-05 01:43:19 UTC
Permalink
On 5/01/2015 12:21 PM, David Harper wrote:
>> SME 10 needs to be worked on now. By reducing the facilities I hope it
> could
>> be launched earlier.
>
> What do you mean by SME 10? If you mean SME + modern packages, I think
> that the plan was to use the current SME9/CentOS 6 base as the starting
> point and to upgrade key packages in the next release of that series;
> therefore "SME 9.1". Can someone confirm?
>

I think this is what comes next with RH going to 7 and CentOS there now
as well..and it is a whole other universe :-)

If Koozali/SME is to survive it will also have to go that route,
hopefully in a timely fashion, resources being the story and the whole
story.

9.1 is a matter of weeks if not days away..if a few ppl would drop in
and help with dev work, verifications and testing maybe sooner.

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Terry Fage
2015-01-04 05:39:29 UTC
Permalink
On 4/01/2015 1:15 PM, John Crisp wrote:
> Perhaps I can try and clarify it a little.

This would be informative if posted in the forums and even the wiki

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John Crisp
2015-01-04 18:09:04 UTC
Permalink
On 04/01/15 06:39, Terry Fage wrote:
> On 4/01/2015 1:15 PM, John Crisp wrote:
>> Perhaps I can try and clarify it a little.
>
> This would be informative if posted in the forums and even the wiki
>

I'll try and knock something together.

B. Rgds
JC

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Matthias Schuh
2015-01-04 10:21:10 UTC
Permalink
Am 04.01.2015 um 03:15 schrieb John Crisp:
> On 03/01/15 21:57, Chris Bostock wrote:
>> The world map is great, I only wish I could find the instructions to add to
>> it
>>
>
> You can't as I believe it gets updated from data on install and that is
> controlled centrally. However, I am not to clear the mechanisms so we
> need to check and see what goes on. We certainly need much better stats
> on where Koozali SME is installed, who by etc.

Couldn't that be tied as additional "survey items" into
/sbin/e-smith/statusreport , which gets called through the "Test
internet connection" item in admin console?

This statusreport script calls http://www.contribs.org/servertest/ and
already contains information on system mode, install time and SME
version, tied to a (hopefully) unique system ID hash.

The corresponding item in the admin console could be extended to query
the user for geographic location of the server and offer multiple
choices regarding intended use (eg. Home, SOHO, Small business, Medium
business, non-profit, evaluation&development, etc.).

I am not aware how this data is utilized after it gets posted to
http://www.contribs.org/servertest , though? Talk about transparency:

It should be very clearly communicated to the user which data will be
sent to where, and how this data is going to be used and why (I feel the
current wording in "Test internet connection" is not precise enough, and
may not be compliant to privacy laws in some countries).

Might make sense to show the statusreport page by default during initial
installation of SME (not sure if it already does), but of course there
should be an opt-out option, should the user wish to not take part in
the survey.

(NB: what's the "Registration" property under the sysconfig key in the
configuration db supposed to be used for?)






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David Beveridge
2015-01-04 11:11:43 UTC
Permalink
Ubuntu has something for measuring what packages/versions etc are installed
see
http://popcon.ubuntu.com/


On Sun, Jan 4, 2015 at 8:21 PM, Matthias Schuh <***@neckargeo.net>
wrote:

> Am 04.01.2015 um 03:15 schrieb John Crisp:
> > On 03/01/15 21:57, Chris Bostock wrote:
> >> The world map is great, I only wish I could find the instructions to
> add to
> >> it
> >>
> >
> > You can't as I believe it gets updated from data on install and that is
> > controlled centrally. However, I am not to clear the mechanisms so we
> > need to check and see what goes on. We certainly need much better stats
> > on where Koozali SME is installed, who by etc.
>
> Couldn't that be tied as additional "survey items" into
> /sbin/e-smith/statusreport , which gets called through the "Test
> internet connection" item in admin console?
> -----8<---------------
Dave Liquorice
2015-01-03 16:36:22 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 03 Jan 2015 15:48:43 +0100, Matthias Schuh wrote:

> I beg your pardon, but I'd consider prompt security updates a key
> feature of any server distro. These should be distributed ASAP after a
> fix has been found and tested, rather than being held back, even for
> (non-paying) home users?

Quite agree, I'm not the quickest to apply updates or even upgrade but one
thing that will make me move some what quicker is a security related update.

SME has never been a "cutting edge" distro, one of it's selling points is
that the component parts are the stable versions. This ties in with some of
the other selling points: "just works" and "reliable".

There could be room for a paid for "cutting edge" release that has any NFRs
included and more recent versions of the core components. I think there
would have to be some form of prioritised support for these (paying)
customers. Although not beta testers they are taking on some risk and need
to know that any problems will be attended to in a timely manner.

After a period of time the "cutting edge" release becomes the donationware
"stable" release. How long for that period of time? 3 months seems a bit
short, 12 months a bit long, 6 months? People can balance their desire for a
new feature/latest core components and paying against waiting and possibly
donating.

How one manages these two ISO's is a problem. I doubt there would be much
time between the "cutting edge" ISO being released and it becoming available
as a torrent. This sort of implies that the "cutting edge" version requires
some form of authorisation, be that "phone home" or an emailed key that ties
an install to that CPU/motherboard/WHY.

--
Cheers
Dave.


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John Crisp
2015-01-05 10:03:44 UTC
Permalink
I know a couple of people have mentioned about RHEL 7 and getting more
modern versions of some things like PHP and MySQL, and as pointed out
getting to 7 is a mammoth task and not something we have the manpower to
do right now.

However, please note that as an alternative there are now 'software
collections' available - please have a read in the forums/bugzilla/wiki
for more information :

http://wiki.centos.org/AdditionalResources/Repositories/SCL
(Has a good explanation of why not every one wants to continually leap
to the newer versions)

http://wiki.contribs.org/Software_collections

That should help get round some of the issues.

B. Rgds
John
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stephane de Labrusse
2015-01-05 15:21:37 UTC
Permalink
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Le 05/01/2015 11:03, John Crisp a écrit :
> http://wiki.contribs.org/Software_collections
>
> That should help get round some of the issues.
>
> B. Rgds John

a)a new version of php

In fact I have had a start for smeserver-php-scl
http://forums.contribs.org/index.php/topic,51223.msg260054.html#msg260054

The contribs is quite workable, we should use the remi repository for
getting rpm, instead of the redhat official

what you can do

- -load php54/php55/php56(with remi repo) to an ibay
- -set specific settings to a version of php (different settings for
each php version)
- -load php54-mod php55-mod(with remi repo) php56-mod(with remi repo)
directly in apache. That does mean that apache will use a new version
of php for all its virtualhost.

etc...etc...

we could add a panel in the server-manager, just for clicking....and
charge the application for helping the project...

I'm kidding or not :)

What I need is time to finish the contrib, but it works and you don't
replace the current php version, so the system is like it was before.


b) a new version of mysql

Jpp has worked on the same idea than me, to use a new version of mysql
with scl.

you can find his rpm
http://mirror.pialasse.com/releases/8.1/smedev/SRPMS/smeserver-mysql55-1.0.0-4.el5.sme.src.rpm

Unfortunately it is for sme8, but I'm quite sure that it could work,
just need time of a developer.


- --

Cordialement

Stéphane de Labrusse
Membre de l'Aru2L http://www.aru2L.org
Membre de l'ApriL http://www.apriL.org


PORTABLE : 06 29 19 12 99
DOMICILE : 05 65 78 90 72
WEB : http://geekeries.de-labrusse.fr
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Jean-Philippe PIALASSE
2015-01-07 00:46:17 UTC
Permalink
take a look at my previous work on mysql55 for sme 8 it is based on
original sme templates adapted to software collection.

it should be easy to reproduce this with a lot of software to have both
version running or even think to have an option between both.

JP

Le 05/01/2015 10:21, stephane de Labrusse a écrit :
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Le 05/01/2015 11:03, John Crisp a écrit :
>> http://wiki.contribs.org/Software_collections
>>
>> That should help get round some of the issues.
>>
>> B. Rgds John
> a)a new version of php
>
> In fact I have had a start for smeserver-php-scl
> http://forums.contribs.org/index.php/topic,51223.msg260054.html#msg260054
>
> The contribs is quite workable, we should use the remi repository for
> getting rpm, instead of the redhat official
>
> what you can do
>
> - -load php54/php55/php56(with remi repo) to an ibay
> - -set specific settings to a version of php (different settings for
> each php version)
> - -load php54-mod php55-mod(with remi repo) php56-mod(with remi repo)
> directly in apache. That does mean that apache will use a new version
> of php for all its virtualhost.
>
> etc...etc...
>
> we could add a panel in the server-manager, just for clicking....and
> charge the application for helping the project...
>
> I'm kidding or not :)
>
> What I need is time to finish the contrib, but it works and you don't
> replace the current php version, so the system is like it was before.
>
>
> b) a new version of mysql
>
> Jpp has worked on the same idea than me, to use a new version of mysql
> with scl.
>
> you can find his rpm
> http://mirror.pialasse.com/releases/8.1/smedev/SRPMS/smeserver-mysql55-1.0.0-4.el5.sme.src.rpm
>
> Unfortunately it is for sme8, but I'm quite sure that it could work,
> just need time of a developer.
>
>
> - --
>
> Cordialement
>
> Stéphane de Labrusse
> Membre de l'Aru2L http://www.aru2L.org
> Membre de l'ApriL http://www.apriL.org
>
>
> PORTABLE : 06 29 19 12 99
> DOMICILE : 05 65 78 90 72
> WEB : http://geekeries.de-labrusse.fr
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1
>
> iEYEARECAAYFAlSqq/0ACgkQ1CTfJUQAIe7QqACfR4KgMooWLcZzFUUljW4t4SOD
> LDYAn3NETTP0ViGN7Y1r7qF8lbeaIjJY
> =HUQ9
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> _______________________________________________
> Server Development Discussion
> To unsubscribe, e-mail devinfo-***@lists.contribs.org
> Searchable archive at http://lists.contribs.org/mailman/public/devinfo/

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Hsing-Foo Wang
2015-01-07 00:48:42 UTC
Permalink
On 01/07/2015 01:46 AM, Jean-Philippe PIALASSE wrote:
> take a look at my previous work on mysql55 for sme 8 it is based on
> original sme templates adapted to software collection.

Software collections is only available for SME9 64-bit. Not?

>
> it should be easy to reproduce this with a lot of software to have
> both version running or even think to have an option between both.
>
> JP
>
> Le 05/01/2015 10:21, stephane de Labrusse a écrit :
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>> Le 05/01/2015 11:03, John Crisp a écrit :
>>> http://wiki.contribs.org/Software_collections
>>>
>>> That should help get round some of the issues.
>>>
>>> B. Rgds John
>> a)a new version of php
>>
>> In fact I have had a start for smeserver-php-scl
>> http://forums.contribs.org/index.php/topic,51223.msg260054.html#msg260054
>>
>>
>> The contribs is quite workable, we should use the remi repository for
>> getting rpm, instead of the redhat official
>>
>> what you can do
>>
>> - -load php54/php55/php56(with remi repo) to an ibay
>> - -set specific settings to a version of php (different settings for
>> each php version)
>> - -load php54-mod php55-mod(with remi repo) php56-mod(with remi repo)
>> directly in apache. That does mean that apache will use a new version
>> of php for all its virtualhost.
>>
>> etc...etc...
>>
>> we could add a panel in the server-manager, just for clicking....and
>> charge the application for helping the project...
>>
>> I'm kidding or not :)
>>
>> What I need is time to finish the contrib, but it works and you don't
>> replace the current php version, so the system is like it was before.
>>
>>
>> b) a new version of mysql
>>
>> Jpp has worked on the same idea than me, to use a new version of mysql
>> with scl.
>>
>> you can find his rpm
>> http://mirror.pialasse.com/releases/8.1/smedev/SRPMS/smeserver-mysql55-1.0.0-4.el5.sme.src.rpm
>>
>>
>> Unfortunately it is for sme8, but I'm quite sure that it could work,
>> just need time of a developer.
>>
>>
>> - --
>> Cordialement
>>
>> Stéphane de Labrusse
>> Membre de l'Aru2L http://www.aru2L.org
>> Membre de l'ApriL http://www.apriL.org
>>
>>
>> PORTABLE : 06 29 19 12 99
>> DOMICILE : 05 65 78 90 72
>> WEB : http://geekeries.de-labrusse.fr
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>> Version: GnuPG v1
>>
>> iEYEARECAAYFAlSqq/0ACgkQ1CTfJUQAIe7QqACfR4KgMooWLcZzFUUljW4t4SOD
>> LDYAn3NETTP0ViGN7Y1r7qF8lbeaIjJY
>> =HUQ9
>> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>> _______________________________________________
>> Server Development Discussion
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail devinfo-***@lists.contribs.org
>> Searchable archive at http://lists.contribs.org/mailman/public/devinfo/
>
> _______________________________________________
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Greg Zartman
2015-01-31 05:12:03 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, Jan 5, 2015 at 2:03 AM, John Crisp <***@safeandsoundit.co.uk>
wrote:

> I know a couple of people have mentioned about RHEL 7 and getting more
> modern versions of some things like PHP and MySQL, and as pointed out
> getting to 7 is a mammoth task and not something we have the manpower to
> do right now.
>
> However, please note that as an alternative there are now 'software
> collections' available - please have a read in the forums/bugzilla/wiki
> for more information :


> http://wiki.contribs.org/Software_collections


This wiki howto does not work for my on SME 9 fully updated as of today.
Stephane's howto, however does work.

Greg
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